Reds Win the World Series thread

Originally posted by shortcircuit
I would not have taken out Arredondo after one hitter.
Then I would not have taken out Marshall after one hitter.
He wasted his pen and was forced to bring in Chapman for a MINIMUM of 2 innings work.

Here is the rub. If he was capable of 2 innings, why not start him at the top of the 8th?
The moves were grade school, or those of an exhausted bullp ...[text shortened]... h the Reds
did not have.

Defend Dusty all you want, he screwed the pooch yesterday. Period!!

Making moves AFTER the game is over is always pretty easy. Arredondo couldn't find the plate and he brought Marshall (who has been struggling) in because he had good numbers against Fielder. It was either leave the game in the hands of guys who were pitching ineffectively and risk losing the game then and there or bring in your well-rested best to pitch 6 outs. Easy call except for the Monday Morning Quarterbacks.

EDIT: If Dusty had had Chapman start the 8th and he failed you would have been screaming " Why'd he take Ondrusek out? He struck out the only batter he faced!" etc. etc. etc.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Making moves AFTER the game is over is always pretty easy. Arredondo couldn't find the plate and he brought Marshall (who has been struggling) in because he had good numbers against Fielder. It was either leave the game in the hands of guys who were pitching ineffectively and risk losing the game then and there or bring in your well-rested best to pitch ...[text shortened]... eaming " Why'd he take Ondrusek out? He struck out the only batter he faced!" etc. etc. etc.

No, YOUR argument was that Chapman was rested, and if he was, and if Dusty was
willing to throw him two innings anyway (which he would have done had he not
coughed up the lead), then why not start the inning with him clean, with no one on
base? Why bring in ineffective relievers (YOUR statement) to face anyone at all?

Since the Reds have the day off today, you bet, it was an EASY call to make.
Dusty didn't make it. Chapman came in, got unraveled, and the rest is history.

I have seen Dusty manage for years and he has never shied away from using his closer
for two innings, especially with a day off the next day. And, I am no monday morning
manager as you say. Look at my original comments. They were being typed WHILE it
was happening. You waited until today to read them.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
No, YOUR argument was that Chapman was rested, and if he was, and if Dusty was
willing to throw him two innings anyway (which he would have done had he not
coughed up the lead), then why not start the inning with him clean, with no one on
base? Why bring in ineffective relievers (YOUR statement) to face anyone at all?

Since the Reds have the day l comments. They were being typed WHILE it
was happening. You waited until today to read them.

The other relievers were ineffective YESTERDAY, not all year. Ondrusek had struck out the one batter he faced and had pitched well this year; why bring in Chapman when you have a 3 run lead with nobody on to pitch two innings? Your comments were made AFTER the decision was made and AFTER Chapman had blown up a bit so it still rates as nothing but second guessing after the fact. Dusty made the right moves; they just didn't work. Sometimes that happens in baseball.

Originally posted by no1marauder
The other relievers were ineffective YESTERDAY, not all year. Ondrusek had struck out the one batter he faced and had pitched well this year; why bring in Chapman when you have a 3 run lead with nobody on to pitch two innings? Your comments were made AFTER the decision was made and AFTER Chapman had blown up a bit so it still rates as nothing but second ...[text shortened]... he fact. Dusty made the right moves; they just didn't work. Sometimes that happens in baseball.

Why?

It is a save situation in a critical game against a great team.

Gee, three reasons!!

You are losing your grip.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Why?

It is a save situation in a critical game against a great team.

Gee, three reasons!!

You are losing your grip.

Stop the crap; managers rarely bring in the closer to start the 8th if they have a 3 run lead. I don't recall Dusty ever doing it.

As for the "critical game" part - it's June not the playoffs. As for the "great team" part, the Tigers are presently a sub-.500 club.

Three stupid and incorrect reasons still don't make ONE decent argument IMO.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Stop the crap; managers rarely bring in the closer to start the 8th if they have a 3 run lead. I don't recall Dusty ever doing it.

As for the "critical game" part - it's June not the playoffs. As for the "great team" part, the Tigers are presently a sub-.500 club.

Three stupid and incorrect reasons still don't make ONE decent argument IMO.

Whatever you think. Dusty screwed up. PERIOD!!!

Hope the Reds lose it by one game this year. Then I am really going to laugh!!

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Whatever you think. Dusty screwed up. PERIOD!!!

Hope the Reds lose it by one game this year. Then I am really going to laugh!!

Maybe he should wait until AFTER the game to make his decisions and then he'll always be right like you are.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Maybe he should wait until AFTER the game to make his decisions and then he'll always be right like you are.

I'm not always right...but in this case, I am right.
I laid out the logic for the decision.
You can choose to be illogical if you like.
My rationale is sound.

You are correct though...hindsight is usually 20/20.
I'll bet you if Dusty had it to do over again, Chapman would have started the 8th.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
I'm not always right...but in this case, I am right.
I laid out the logic for the decision.
You can choose to be illogical if you like.
My rationale is sound.

You are correct though...hindsight is usually 20/20.
I'll bet you if Dusty had it to do over again, Chapman would have started the 8th.

No, he wouldn't have because it wouldn't have made sense. Ondrusek struck out the last batter in the 7th with two on and the Reds had a three run lead. Dusty and every other manager would have made the same decision 100 times out of 100.

At first you said: "I would not have taken out Arredondo after one hitter.
Then I would not have taken out Marshall after one hitter. " NOW, Chapman should have been brought in to start the 8th! Which is it, SC? If Arredondo and Marshall had pitched to more than one batter, it would have been kinda hard for Chapman to start the 8th, wouldn't it?

Second guessing after the fact is easy; you don't even have to be consistent.

Originally posted by no1marauder
No, he wouldn't have because it wouldn't have made sense. Ondrusek struck out the last batter in the 7th with two on and the Reds had a three run lead. Dusty and every other manager would have made the same decision 100 times out of 100.

I'm not going to argue this with you forever. You obviously don't understand my point.

I will state it one more time.

If Dusty was will to throw a rest Chapman 2 innings (as he surely would have when he brought him in with 2 on and nobody out in the 8th) you must assume he was good
with that. Why not let him start the 8th with the bases clean and a 3 run lead?
You are not wasting your closer, because it is a save situation.
You are not overworking the guy, because he was rested and has a day off next day.

You are incorrect that managers would have done what Dusty did 100/100 times.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
I'm not going to argue this with you forever. You obviously don't understand my point.

I will state it one more time.

If Dusty was will to throw a rest Chapman 2 innings (as he surely would have when he brought him in with 2 on and nobody out in the 8th) you must assume he was good
with that. Why not let him start the 8th with the bases clean and ...[text shortened]... off next day.

You are incorrect that managers would have done what Dusty did 100/100 times.

Yes and Arredondo should have pitched to more than 1 batter and Marshall should have pitched to more than 1 batter and on and on and on.

Show me a recent game where a team brought in their closer with a three run lead to start the 8th.

Dusty obviously didn't want to use Chapman for two innings (he hasn't pitched two innings in a month and that was BEFORE he became the closer) but the failure of the other relievers left him no choice.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Yes and Arredondo should have pitched to more than 1 batter and Marshall should have pitched to more than 1 batter and on and on and on.

Show me a recent game where a team brought in their closer with a three run lead to start the 8th.

Dusty obviously didn't want to use Chapman for two innings (he hasn't pitched two innings i ...[text shortened]... at was BEFORE he became the closer) but the failure of the other relievers left him no choice.

I am not going to research the exact score of each game, but there have been four
2IP relief jobs by closers in the month of June, and two 1.2IP closes in June.
There were eight in the month of May.

I would say that indicates precedent.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
I am not going to research the exact score of each game, but there have been [b]four
2IP relief jobs by closers in the month of June, and two 1.2IP closes in June.
There were eight in the month of May.

I would say that indicates precedent.[/b]

How many of the 2 IP jobs were with starting the 8th with a 3 run lead? Zero.

Here's some homework for ya on another matter discussed in this thread: http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/25379/votto-not-hamilton-is-baseballs-top-hitter

Originally posted by no1marauder
How many of the 2 IP jobs were with starting the 8th with a 3 run lead? Zero.

Here's some homework for ya on another matter discussed in this thread: http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/25379/votto-not-hamilton-is-baseballs-top-hitter

Tell me what the scores were of each game.

You haven't researched squat.
List the reliever and the date the game was pitched.
I kept a log of them. I just told you I didn't check whether there was a 3 run lead or not.
It shouldn't make a ton of difference though.
It is a save situation.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Tell me what the scores were of each game.

You haven't researched squat.
List the reliever and the date the game was pitched.
I kept a log of them. I just told you I didn't check whether there was a 3 run lead or not.
It shouldn't make a ton of difference though.
It is a save situation.

If you have the dates it's easy enough to check: go to this site http://www.baseball-reference.com/ then to the team and then to its Schedule.

I'll wager most of those 2 IP games weren't even save situations but tie games where the closer couldn't get a save because he was pitching for the home team.

For example, Fernando Rodney of the Rays started the 9th May 23rd in a 4-4 at home against the Blue Jays and pitched the 9th and 10th.

On the other hand, Joe Nathan of the Rangers hasn't pitched more than 1 inning in a game all year.