Originally posted by ahosyneyLOl ... Ahosyney ... Answer the following questions please with a yes or no:
You keep modifying my words, and saying something that I didn't say. That is of course compined with the folish presentation of your arguments which themselves aganist you.
What I believe is clear and I presented it clearly. And I'm not hypocrite like you to change what I say according to the conditions of the discussion.
I gave you an example of how ...[text shortened]... problem?
I hope to get a different answer than Islam is sick and you are stupid stupid.
1. Do you believe that an adulterer should be killed?
2. Do you believe that an apostate should be killed?
Of course, provided there are sufficient witnesses and proof etc etc.
Please answer YES or NO. Do not quote from the Koran . Thanks.
My answer to those questions are NO and NO.
Any Christian will similarly answer NO and NO. So your continued questions about the Bible are pointless. Nobody who believes the Bible also believes that adulterers and apostates should be killed ... nobody.
Originally posted by Rajk999I'll respond to both your posts (this one and the one above) here to save space.
Your post is nonsense.
Islam supports the killing of adulterers and apostates.
Where is the forgiveness and tolerance?
First of all, I do have private contact with ahosyney. We do discuss this. I have read the Qur'an. There is nothing in there about stoning adulterers and apostates. I believe that those rituals are only followed in the extremely conservative countries, but not necessarily Islamic. All conservative countries have similar rituals. Look no further than Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, owned by the U.S. The state-sponsored, state-run prison there is horrible.
And it's designed for Muslims.
You don't have to be Muslim to be horrible. Most Muslims are good people. The minority that is conservative, such as the governments of Saudi Arabia and Iran (both supported by conservative US governments at one point for oil, just so you know), somehow make the rest of the followers gain a horrible stereotype.
It probably started during the age of imperialism, or maybe earlier, at a time like the Crusades, but now it is worse than ever.
Originally posted by Rajk999The Bible tells followers to do some pretty horrible things to adulterers, apostates, and sodomites.
LOl ... Ahosyney ... Answer the following questions please with a yes or no:
1. Do you believe that an adulterer should be killed?
2. Do you believe that an apostate should be killed?
Of course, provided there are sufficient witnesses and proof etc etc.
Please answer YES or NO. Do not quote from the Koran . Thanks.
My answer to those questions ...[text shortened]... who believes the Bible also believes that adulterers and apostates should be killed ... nobody.
Originally posted by ahosyneyThere are no spiritual leaders? What about Imams and Caliphs?
For example: There is nothing called spiritual leadership in Islam. In other words after prophet Mohammed no one is infallible. And so you can follow the opinion of one scholar as long as this opinion is supported by Quran or Hadith. If not then there is nothing that force you to follow him. but ignorance give a space to anyone to assume leadership among ignor ...[text shortened]... whatever he wants.
Why there is a lake of Islamic education among Muslims is another story!!![/b]
As far as no one being infallible after Mohammed, why is that? I know you do not buy into the "born into sin" docrtine, so why is no one after Mohammed then infallible? Also, were there any infallible before Mohammed? For example, was Christ infallible in your opinion?
Originally posted by whodeyImam is a person who has more knowladge of Quran and Hadith. So if any Imam give an opinion that is not matching what is in Quran or Hadith, then there nothing that force me to follow him. So the Imam is a guide more than a leader. Yes Imam for his knowledge is respectable, but he is of course not infallible, and he may make mistakes. Don't confuse mistake with sin. I mean that in specific point he can give a wrong opinion. And the good Imam is the one who accpect advice from others. There is a famous story about Omar Ibn el Khatab, he was a companion of the prophet, and the second Caliph after him. He was once giving Friday speach where he made a mistake in some point. A woman who was listening to his speach stopped him and corrected him, and he did accept her correction and said, "The women was right and Omar is Mistaken"
There are no spiritual leaders? What about Imams and Caliphs?
As far as no one being infallible after Mohammed, why is that? I know you do not buy into the "born into sin" docrtine, so why is no one after Mohammed then infallible? Also, were there any infallible before Mohammed? For example, was Christ infallible in your opinion?
So this give us Muslim an example of how the Imam should behave.
About Caliph it is more political leadership than being spritual. So the Caliph was the presedent of the Islamic nation in the old days.
As far as no one being infallible after Mohammed, why is that?
Because prophet Mohammed was recieving inspiration from Allah through the angel Gabriel. So we believe that his opinions are not from him but from Allah, and for that reason they are infallible. But after his death, the inspiration didn't go to any one else. So every one is giving his own opinion based on the avaliable resources, and he may be right or wrong depending on his own reasoning.
I know you do not buy into the "born into sin" docrtine, so why is no one after Mohammed then infallible?
What I'm talking about here is not sin. I'm talking about opinions in Islamic issues (Fatwa). For example when you ask what the Muslim do before going to prayer, every Muslim knows that it is Wadou (washing). But the description of this washing was taken from Quran and Hadith. In some parts of it early scholars give different opinion about how much of your face should you wash for example. So if one of those Imams give an opinion that is not matching what is in Hadith, then he give a wrong opinion. That is not a sin (it is a different concept).
Also, were there any infallible before Mohammed? For example, was Christ infallible in your opinion?
Yes of course, all the prophets are infallible because of the same reason. They were recieving inspiration from Allah. So of course Jesus is included.
Originally posted by ahosyneyPerhaps this issue goes hand in hand with the lack of education. You see the less education you have the more you must depend on others to tell you what you need to know. This is in regards to anything. For example, when the Catholic church once let people purchase their way out of purgatory an educated man by the name of Martin Luther became outraged. He was outraged because he new that it had no basis whatsoever in scripture. In fact, it ran contrary to everything he knew about the Bible so he started a movement that made the first major break from the Catholic church. At that time most poeple were uneducated and even prohibited form owning a Bible. That way their leaders could tell them anything without being held accountable by scripture. To remedy this situation, Martin Luther began a move to print the written word and get it to as many people as possible who could read. I think perhaps Islam needs such a man if what you say is true about the Quran and Hadith.
[b]Imam is a person who has more knowladge of Quran and Hadith. So if any Imam give an opinion that is not matching what is in Quran or Hadith, then there nothing that force me to follow him. So the Imam is a guide more than a leader.
Of course, there comes the problem of interpretations whether we are talking of the Bible or the Quran. Setting aside whether you think one is "perfect" and the other not, you still have people debating the same text in regards to the truth to all of its respective teachings. At such times we often look to those in authority over us. In your case, it would probably be an Imam.
Just out of curiosity, do you know of any teachings from an Imam that you found contrary to the Quran that they had not an interpretation for in the Quran or Hadith? If so, please share.
Originally posted by whodeyI think perhaps Islam needs such a man if what you say is true about the Quran and Hadith.
Perhaps this issue goes hand in hand with the lack of education. You see the less education you have the more you must depend on others to tell you what you need to know. This is in regards to anything. For example, when the Catholic church once let people purchase their way out of purgatory an educated man by the name of Martin Luther became outraged. He he Quran that they had not an interpretation for in the Quran or Hadith? If so, please share.
Big part of what you said is true, except of the above part.
Unlike the Bible, Quran and Hadith are published every where. And at no period of time they were hidden or ristrected. Actually as I pointed before Quran is memorized by many Muslims around the world. And most Muslim finish reading once a year. The university I graduated from in Egypt it was a condition to join it is to memorize the whole Quran.
So the real problem is there was a period of time I think in the begining of the 20 century where Muslims were affected by the western civilization due to the continuse occupation at that period. For example when the England invaded Egypt, Al Azhar (mousqe and University) was the religious organization that was teaching Islam to people. It was also having a great impact on the political views of the country. After the british occupation the rule of Al Azhar organization started to be reduced gradually until just before the british leave Egypt, there was no much interest of Islamic study in Egypt, and Islamic identity was completly lost.
The major problem was that after they left the Egyptian who took over adopted a different political view than Islamic one (mainly communizm) which of course increased the gap between Egyptians and Islam. In the early 70's people started to go back to Islam in Egypt, but the problem is that the organization that was providing a comprehencive Islamic study was very weak. So some of those who started to read about Islam started to educate themselves, and here started the problem. They got incomplete education and points of views that take part of Islam and ignore many.
Same may be applied to many other Islamic countries today.
So I think what we need is an organized Education. The material are there, and almost all the major issues facing Islam today are well studied many years ago, but they are just ignored. Most of my information I got from my high school study, I'm gratuated from Al Azhar University in Cairo, the one I was talking about before.
Just out of curiosity, do you know of any teachings from an Imam that you found contrary to the Quran that they had not an interpretation for in the Quran or Hadith? If so, please share.
Of course, there are many, I just have nothing special in my mind now, it is 12:30 AM here, and I'm a little bit sleapy 🙂
I will think about something and come back to you...
Originally posted by whodeyWhodey:"Perhaps this issue goes hand in hand with the lack of education. You see the less education you have the more you must depend on others to tell you what you need to know."
Perhaps this issue goes hand in hand with the lack of education. You see the less education you have the more you must depend on others to tell you what you need to know. This is in regards to anything. For example, when the Catholic church once let people purchase their way out of purgatory an educated man by the name of Martin Luther became outraged. He he Quran that they had not an interpretation for in the Quran or Hadith? If so, please share.
... and what is getting an education ? It is a proces during which people tell you what you need to know , what you need to think and what you need to do ..... 😉
Originally posted by ivanhoeThe comprehensive education that I'm talking about is not like this.
Whodey:"Perhaps this issue goes hand in hand with the lack of education. You see the less education you have the more you must depend on others to tell you what you need to know."
... and what is getting an education ? It is a proces during which people tell you what you need to know , what you need to think and what you need to do ..... 😉
It doesn't only teach what to do , or not to do?
It also teach the methods, and reasoning approaches that will help to extracts those do's and don't do's?
For example:
They don't only teach that you must pray five times a day.
But they teach how Muslims knew that they must pray five times a day, why not 6.
This includes how to be sure of the authenticity of the Hadith, study of Arabic grammer to extract the exact meaning, reasoning and logic, and many more.
Originally posted by whodey"Lack of education" is certainly a problem. Esp. for you. Your version of Luther's dispute with the RCC is laughably incorrect.
Perhaps this issue goes hand in hand with the lack of education. You see the less education you have the more you must depend on others to tell you what you need to know. This is in regards to anything. For example, when the Catholic church once let people purchase their way out of purgatory an educated man by the name of Martin Luther became outraged. He ...[text shortened]... he Quran that they had not an interpretation for in the Quran or Hadith? If so, please share.
Originally posted by scherzoThe OT Bible has death to those people yes. The koran does not .. according to you.
The Bible tells followers to do some pretty horrible things to adulterers, apostates, and sodomites.
Yet in Islamic countries we hear of death to adulterers and apostates.
But among Christians who follow the Bible, there is no such thing.
How come ?
Originally posted by scherzoI agree with you that stereotyping is often (but not always) unfair. But you should appreciate that for the stereotype develop in the first place there must have been some experience that caused it. It takes time, often generations, to remove them. Would you say that muslims give a damn about who thinks what about them? I think they do not. So they dont really care about the stereotype assigned to them either ... would be my guess.
I'll respond to both your posts (this one and the one above) here to save space.
First of all, I do have private contact with ahosyney. We do discuss this. I have read the Qur'an. There is nothing in there about stoning adulterers and apostates. I believe that those rituals are only followed in the extremely conservative countries, but not necessarily Isl ...[text shortened]... f imperialism, or maybe earlier, at a time like the Crusades, but now it is worse than ever.
Open the Koran, which is perfect in its every syllable, and simply read it with the eyes of faith. You will see how little compassion need be wasted on those whom God himself is in the process of "mocking," "cursing," " shaming," "punishing," "scourging," "judging," "burning," "annihilating," "not forgiving," and "not reprieving." God, who is infinitely wise, has cursed the infidels with their doubts. He prolongs their life and prosperity so that they may continue heaping sin upon sin and all the more richly deserve the torments that await them beyond the grave. In this light, the people who died on Sept. 11 were nothing more than fuel for the eternal fires of God's justice. To convey the relentlessness with which unbelievers are vilified in the text of the Koran, I found a long compilation of quotations below, in order of their appearance in the text. This is what the Creator of the universe apparently has on his mind (when he is not fussing with gravitational constants and atomic weights):
"It is the same whether or not you forwarn them [the unbelievers], they will have no faith" (2:6).
"God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along" (2:15).
A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them (2:24).
They will be "rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection" (2:85).
"God's curse be upon the infidels!" (2:89).
"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits [them]" (2:90).
"God is the enemy of the unbelievers" (2:98).
"The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Christians and Jews], and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2:105).
"They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter" (2:114).
"Those to whom We [God] have given the Book, and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost" (2:122).
"[We] shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate" (2:126).
"The East and the West are God's. He guides whom He will to a straight path" (2:142).
"Do not say that those slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, but you are not aware of them" (2:154).
"But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved" (2:162).
"They shall sigh with remorse, but shall never come out of the Fire" (2:168).
"The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing" (2:172).
"Theirs shall be a woeful punishment" (2:175).
"How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism" (2:176).
"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. . . . [I]f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers"(2:190–93).
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not" (2:216).
"They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith—if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of God, may hope for God's mercy" (2:217–18).
"God does not guide the evil-doers" (2:258).
"God does not guide the unbelievers" (2:264).
"The evil-doers shall have none to help them" (2:270).
"God gives guidance to whom He will" (2:272).
"Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge" (3:5).
"As for the unbelievers, neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them from God's judgment. They shall become fuel for the Fire" (3:10).
"Say to the unbelievers: ‘You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell—an evil resting place!'" (3:12).
"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam. . . . He that denies God's revelations should know that swift is God's reckoning" (3:19).
"Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful—he that does this has nothing to hope for from God—except in self-defense" (3:28).
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" (3:118).
"If you have suffered a defeat, so did the enemy.We alternate these vicissitudes among mankind so that God may know the true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God does not love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and annihilate the infidels" (3:140).
"Believers, if you yield to the infidels they will drag you back to unbelief and you will return headlong to perdition. . . .We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire shall be their home" (3:149-51).
"Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle: ‘Had they stayed with us they would not have died, nor would they have been killed.' God will cause them to regret their words. . . . If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, God's forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass" (3:156).
"Never think that those who were slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, and well provided for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those they left behind, who have not yet joined them, have nothing to fear or to regret; rejoicing in God's grace and bounty. God will not deny the faithful their reward" (3:169).
"Let not the unbelievers think that We prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them" (3:178).
"Those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain: I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a reward from God; God holds the richest recompense. Do not be deceived by the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is brief. Hell shall be their home, a dismal resting place" (3:195–96).
"God has cursed them in their unbelief" (4:46).
"God will not forgive those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is guilty of a heinous sin. . . . Consider those to whom a portion of the Scriptures was given. They believe in idols and false gods and say of the infidels: ‘These are better guided than the believers'" (4:50–51).
"Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise" (4:55–56).
"Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a pastime" (5:57).
"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. We have stirred among them enmity and hatred, which will endure till the Day of Resurrection" (5:65).
"God does not guide the unbelievers" (5:67).
"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. But do not grieve for the unbelievers" (5:69).
"You see many among them making friends with unbelievers. Evil is that to which their souls prompt them. They have incurred the wrath of God and shall endure eternal torment. . . .You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection to them are those who say: ‘We are Christians'" (5:80–82).
"[T]hose that disbelieve and deny Our revelations shall become the inmates of Hell" (5:86).
"[T]hey deny the truth when it is declared to them: but they shall learn the consequences of their scorn" (6:5).
"We had made them more powerful in the land than yourselves [the Meccans], sent down for them abundant water from the sky and gave them rivers that rolled at their feet. Yet because they sinned We destroyed them all and raised up other generations after them. If We sent down to you a Book inscribed on real parchment and they touched it with their own hands, the unbelievers would still assert: ‘This is but plain sorcery.' They ask: ‘Why has no angel been sent down to him [Muhammad]?' If We had sent down an angel, their fate would have been sealed and they would have never been reprieved" (6:5–8).
"Who is more wicked than the man who invents falsehoods about God or denies His revelations?" (6:21).
"Some of them listen to you. But We have cast veils over their hearts and made th...
Faith enables a person to fool himself into thinking that he is maintaining his standards of reasonableness, while forsaking them. Religion remains the only mode of discourse that encourages grown men and women to pretend to know things they manifestly do not (and cannot) know. If ever there were an attitude at odds with science, this is it. And the faithful are encouraged to keep shouldering this unwieldy burden of falsehood and self-deception by everyone they meet—by their coreligionists, of course, and by people of differing faith, and now, with startling frequency, by scientists who claim to have no faith.
I would have need of no further reason for religion to disgust me than its treatment of women throughout history and throughout the world. For millennia the world’s great prophets and theologians have applied their collective genius to the riddle of womanhood. The result has been polygamy, sati, honor killing, punitive rape, genital mutilation, forced marriages, a cultic obsession with virginity, compulsory veiling, the persecution of unwed mothers, and other forms of physical and psychological abuse so kaleidoscopic in variety as to scarcely admit of concise description.
Let us take stock of the moral intuitions that has been on display in recent years in the House of Islam: On Aug. 17, 2005, an Iraqi insurgent helped collect the injured survivors of a car bombing, rushed them to a hospital and then detonated his own bomb, murdering those who were already mortally wounded as well as the doctors and nurses struggling to save their lives.
Where were the cries of outrage from the Muslim world? Religious sociopaths kill innocents by the hundreds in the capitols of Europe, blow up the offices of the U.N. and the Red Cross, purposefully annihilate crowds of children gathered to collect candy from U.S. soldiers on the streets of Baghdad, kidnap journalists, behead them, and the videos of their butchery become the most popular form of pornography in the Muslim world, and no one utters a word of protest because these atrocities have been perpetrated “in defense of Islam.” But draw a picture of the Prophet, and pious mobs convulse with pious rage. One could hardly ask for a better example of religious dogmatism and its pseudo-morality eclipsing basic, human goodness.
It is time we recognized—and obliged the Muslim world to recognize—that “Muslim extremism” is not extreme among Muslims. Mainstream Islam itself represents an extremist rejection of intellectual honesty, gender equality, secular politics and genuine pluralism. The truth about Islam is as politically incorrect as it is terrifying: Islam is all fringe and no center. In Islam, we confront a civilization with an arrested history. It is as though a portal in time has opened, and the Christians of the 14th century are pouring into our world.
Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe. The demographic trends are ominous: Given current birthrates, France could be a majority Muslim country in 25 years, and that is if immigration were to stop tomorrow. Throughout Western Europe, Muslim immigrants show little inclination to acquire the secular and civil values of their host countries, and yet exploit these values to the utmost—demanding tolerance for their backwardness, their misogyny, their anti-Semitism, and the genocidal hatred that is regularly preached in their mosques. Political correctness and fears of racism have rendered many secular Europeans incapable of opposing the terrifying religious commitments of the extremists in their midst. In an effort to appease the lunatic furor arising in the Muslim world in response to the publication of the Danish cartoons, many Western leaders offered apologies for exercising the very freedoms that are constitutive of civil society in the 21st century. The U.S. and British governments chastised Denmark and the other countries that published the cartoons for privileging freedom of speech over religious sensitivity.
It is not often that one sees the most powerful countries on Earth achieve new depths of weakness, moral exhaustion and geopolitical stupidity with a single gesture. This was appeasement at its most abject.
The idea that Islam is a “peaceful religion hijacked by extremists” is a dangerous fantasy—and it is now a particularly dangerous fantasy for Muslims to indulge. It is not at all clear how we should proceed in our dialogue with the Muslim world, but deluding ourselves with euphemisms is not the answer.
It now appears to be a truism in foreign policy circles that real reform in the Muslim world cannot be imposed from the outside. But it is important to recognize why this is so—it is so because the Muslim world is utterly deranged by its religious tribalism. In confronting the religious literalism and ignorance of the Muslim world, we must appreciate how terrifyingly isolated Muslims have become in intellectual terms. The problem is especially acute in the Arab world.
Consider: According to the United Nations’ Arab Human Development Reports, less than 2% of Arabs have access to the Internet. Arabs represent 5% of the world’s population and yet produce only 1% of the world’s books, most of them religious. In fact, Spain translates more books into Spanish each year than the entire Arab world has translated into Arabic since the ninth century.
Our press should report on the terrifying state of discourse in the Arab press, exposing the degree to which it is a tissue of lies, conspiracy theories and exhortations to recapture the glories of the seventh century. All civilized nations must unite in condemnation of a theology that now threatens to destabilize much of the Earth. Muslim moderates, wherever they are, must be given every tool necessary to win a war of ideas with their coreligionists. Otherwise, we will have to win some very terrible wars in the future.
It is time we realized that the endgame for civilization is not political correctness. It is not respect for the abject religious certainties of the mob. It is reason.