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@kellyjay saidThere is no confusion and my question is perfectly clear and reasonable.
What confuses you or does not matter in your estimation? The fact that someone who by definition is perfectly good and just is doing something and there are those who oppose Him?
'Why is it unreasonable for me to conclude that such qualities are not compatible with a God that would have people tormented for all eternity?'
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But why is the punishment torture in burning flames though?
So I hear the warning that the saved will have eternal blessing and the condemned will have eternal misery, eternal loss.
Say -
I never believed in the Savior.
I never thanked God for anything.
I never believed in this "ideology" or ASK God for anything.
Now I come to the last judgment with the sick feeling in my stomach that the Bible was true. Should I now before God say:
God I clearly rejected You, never asked anything from You, didn't believe a word that you spoke. And now I am condemned. Though I never asked you for anything I want to ask of you one thing now -
Could you make it for me that I do not suffer loss? I mean just non-exist me so there is no awareness or sense of eternal loss as you warned?
Even the thief on the cross next to Jesus realized that he was getting what he deserved. All he said was "Remember me when you come into Your kingdom." He didn't asked to get out of what he deserved. He just asked for Jesus to remember him.
Jesus said he would be with Him in Paradise. He would be saved because of his faith.
He warned of the condemned suffering loss in words impossible to misunderstand. Should the unreconciled, unforgiven rejecting rebel to God then ask God to go back on His warning so that eternal misery will not be the result?
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThey are not opposite positions!
None of that addresses the point of my post.
How do 'you' (Kelly) balance the two extremes?
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWhen God is going to turn evil over for it’s righteous punishment for all of its crimes, it will be done with God’s wrath, as those entering into His eternal Kingdom receive His love and grace. When that happens wrath not love comes into play!
There is no confusion and my question is perfectly clear and reasonable.
'Why is it unreasonable for me to conclude that such qualities are not compatible with a God that would have people tormented for all eternity?'
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@sonship saidAvoiding direct questions about the thread OP by asking counter-questions such as “what would you do if you died and found out you were wrong” is not debate sonship, it is dodging. It is a lame counter-measures tactic.
@divegeester
You do not often respond to questions I put to you on this difficult matter. To be fair, ONCE I recall you replied to me asking you about would you upon finding out you were wrong, desire to throw your lot in with the condemned Devil. I think once you said what amounted to the question is irrelevant or not valid.You once just dismissed it. I count it as dodging.
According to your literal interpretation of Revelation your version of Jesus will be in hell overseeing the burning alive of non Christians.
This statement in the OP was provoked by your intellectual dishonesty in the other thread about the use of the phrase “being burnt alive”. Burning alive is what the literal interpretation of Revelation says.
If you disagree please feel free to prove me wrong. We are nearly a 1000 posts into this thread and neither you, SecondSon nor KellyJay have been able to do so.
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@kellyjay saidKeep telling yourself that.
They are not opposite positions!
Keep telling yourself that your awful yet ridiculous interpretation of scripture is that the loving merciful Christ of John 3:16 who SO loved the WORLD that he came and died for EVERYONE, will later be in hell burning those same people alive for rejecting his love.
You keep telling yourself that that makes sense.
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@kellyjay said“Into play”
When God is going to turn evil over for it’s righteous punishment for all of its crimes, it will be done with God’s wrath, as those entering into His eternal Kingdom receive His love and grace. When that happens wrath not love comes into play!
Good job your version of God can switch between love and wrath easily I guess.
@sonship saidSo there's punishment, I see. But what is the moral justification for it being torture?
@FMF
But why is the punishment torture in burning flames though?
So I hear the warning that the saved will have eternal blessing and the condemned will have eternal misery, eternal loss.
Say -
I never believed in the Savior.
I never thanked God for anything.
I never believed in this "ideology" or ASK God for anything.
Now I come to the la ...[text shortened]... g rebel to God then ask God to go back on His warning so that eternal misery will not be the result?
@sonship said"Impossible to misunderstand"?
He warned of the condemned suffering loss in words impossible to misunderstand. Should the unreconciled, unforgiven rejecting rebel to God then ask God to go back on His warning so that eternal misery will not be the result?
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@sonship saidSo eternal suffering in hell is “impossible to understand”, it’s also invisible, there is no evidence of it and it carried out regardless of the threat of it having any impact on those experiencing it....and yet it’s supposed to be a deterrent to us here on earth (as well as those famous beings on other worlds), it’s also “perfect justice”.
@FMF
Jesus said he would be with Him in Paradise. He would be saved because of his faith. He warned of the condemned suffering loss in words impossible to misunderstand.
Makes perfect sense...
Just so it is clear our default position before God is wrath, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." God's love for us was demonstrated in sending Jesus to us to save us from the fate of dying in our sins before a Holy God. It is God's love and mercy that He is extending to us offering grace to those that believe. If they don't, the wrath of God remains on us.
Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
John 3:35-36 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Ephesians 5:5-7 English Standard Version (ESV)
For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them;
Colossians 3:7-9 English Standard Version (ESV)
In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Revelation 6:15-17 English Standard Version (ESV)
Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
@kellyjay saidWhat is the moral justification and purpose of this wrath being expressed through torture in burning fire?
Just so it is clear our default position before God is wrath, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." God's love for us was demonstrated in sending Jesus to us to save us from the fate of dying in our sins before a Holy God. It is God's love and mercy that He is extending to us offering grace to those that believe. If they don't, the wrath of God remains on us.
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@kellyjay saidPosting lots and lots of scriptures which you believe support your unsupportable position is not debate KellyJay
Just so it is clear our default position before God is wrath, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." God's love for us was demonstrated in sending Jesus to us to save us from the fate of dying in our sins before a Holy God. It is God's love and mercy that He is extending to us off ...[text shortened]... rone, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
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@kellyjay saidPutting your objective hat on, (I think it is in the back of a cupboard somewhere) If I presented you with a brand new deity who I described as:
They are not opposite positions!
1. All-powerful
2. All wise
3. All-loving
4. Righteous
5. Good
6. Holy
Would you truly not find it bizarre and wholly opposite to the character of such a deity if I added, "Oh, and he will also torment non-believers for all eternity in hell"?
Seriously?!