- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
So eternal suffering in hell is “impossible to understand”, it’s also invisible,
Can you think of anything good about a lake of fire that one should not be concerned about being thrown into it?
It is not ambiguous. And Jesus explicitly warned Who it is we should fear for His authority to go beyond what man can do to punish.
" And I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing has authority to cast into Gehenna;
Yes, I tell you, fear this One." (Luke 12:5)
1.) The appropriate response to this teaching out of the mouth of Christ is to fear this One.
2.) I think the first reason given by Christ to "fear this One" is because His knowledge of our lives is infallibly without omission of ANY facts.
"Therefore what you have said in the darkness will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in the private rooms will be proclaimed on the housetops."
He saw. He heard. He knows. He records. He will replay it back if He has to, not only to you but to the world.
3.) The next reason given from Christ to "fear this One" is because His power and authority go BEYOND what human beings are able to inflict as punishment.
"And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterwards have nothing more that they can do."
Don't compare God with man in this regard.
Don't assume the authority and power of God is only the same as that of mankind.
Having said that, I hasten to add that in the same section Christ gives reason to NOT BE FEARFUL at all if you are with Him rather than against.
" ... Yes, I tell you, fear this One,
Are not five sparrows sold for two assaria? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
But even the hairs of your head have all been numbered. Do not be afraid; you are of more value then many sparrows." (See Luke 12:5c-7)
No, really SEE it.
The authority, omniscience, power of God can work either against man if he is not justified OR it can work for man if he is trusting in God.
Every word and action is known.
Every hair on the head is numbered.
Fear if you are resisting His salvation.
Do not be afraid if you trust Him for salvation.
there is no evidence of it and it carried out regardless of the threat of it having any impact on those experiencing it....and yet it’s supposed to be a deterrent to us here on earth (as well as those famous beings on other worlds), it’s also “perfect justice”.
I take Him at His word. I am curious. But I am not THAT curious as to want to test God and see what occurs if I reject the Son of God.
Makes perfect sense...
I see the Gospel as a blessing not to "Whosoever to whom it makes perfect sense" but to "Whosoever believes into Him ..." .
My understanding level is adequate.
What also makes adequate sense is that fear of divine punishment is not the only thing taught in the Bible. I would like someone to estimate for me how much of the Holy Bible one can read before the matter of eternal misery under God's judgment comes up. It appears to center around receiving or rejecting Jesus the Son of God.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
"Impossible to misunderstand"?
If you work at it really hard maybe you can mouth that you didn't understand God's hatred for your sinning. And you may mouth you didn't get it, how before you were born He arranged provision for you to be saved from judgment.
Bertrand Russell took your concept. He said he will tell God if God is something like - Sir, You didn't do enough to reveal Yourself.
I suspect that if that happens God will show Bertrand on how many thousands of things in his life, he made decisions with less knowledge.
Maybe God who keeps an infallible record will show him who tricked him, who he trusted with less information, who led him astray without his knowledge, and how God protected him from occasions of being cheated even by those he trusted.
Maybe he will see that not knowing enough didn't stop him from the tens of thousands of transgressions he committed. On less information revealed he lived in his sins.
24 Sep 19
@sonship saidIf the supposed revelation is convincing enough for you, it's convincing enough for every human being? Is that how your ego has processed your speculations about supernatural things?
@FMF
"Impossible to misunderstand"?
If you work at it really hard maybe you can mouth that you didn't understand God's hatred for your sinning. And you may mouth you didn't get it, how before you were born He arranged provision for you to be saved from judgment.
Bertrand Russell took your concept. He said he will tell God if God is something like ...[text shortened]... tens of thousands of transgressions he committed. On less information revealed he lived in his sins.
24 Sep 19
@sonship saidI lack belief in all these assertions you are making. And your threats of eternal torture don't work. Has your religion given you anything else to offer in support of your assertions about what you believe when you are proselytizing?
If you work at it really hard maybe you can mouth that you didn't understand God's hatred for your sinning. And you may mouth you didn't get it, how before you were born He arranged provision for you to be saved from judgment.
Bertrand Russell took your concept. He said he will tell God if God is something like - Sir, You didn't do enough to reveal Yourself.
...[text shortened]... tens of thousands of transgressions he committed. On less information revealed he lived in his sins.
24 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidScriptures are very clear on a few points, and one of them is that no one is going to have an excuse. Creating the universe, we are all given the knowledge of God, and continually receive knowledge of God. In our daily lives with our words we utter things that show we know right from wrong, there will be no one who can say they did not know. God, who is completely wise, good, and righteous has ensured that; however, when we suppress the truth, it is an act of evil and rebellion to avoid Him. Non-believers, believers are all one group of people sinners, and with that, we all will be standing in front of the who suffered the wrath of God on their behalf. We will answer to the One that will know every single thing without exception there will be no secrets about their lives. All of us will receive grace asked for in this life as we have given their lives to the Lord, or wrath it does not get any more severe and serious than that!
Putting your objective hat on, (I think it is in the back of a cupboard somewhere) If I presented you with a brand new deity who I described as:
1. All-powerful
2. All wise
3. All-loving
4. Righteous
5. Good
6. Holy
Would you truly not find it bizarre and wholly opposite to the character of such a deity if I added, "Oh, and he will also torment non-believers for all eternity in hell"?
Seriously?!
- Joined
- 14 Mar 15
- Moves
- 29847
24 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidSo you couldn't find your objective hat, hey?
Scriptures are very clear on a few points, and one of them is that no one is going to have an excuse. Creating the universe, we are all given the knowledge of God, and continually receive knowledge of God. In our daily lives with our words we utter things that show we know right from wrong, there will be no one who can say they did not know. God, who is completely wise, good ...[text shortened]... have given their lives to the Lord, or wrath it does not get any more severe and serious than that!
24 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI think you are under the notion that somehow we are good people, and the thought of God is evil; instead, that God created us who is good, and we are who have shunned our purposes in life with God. Going forward to the eternal Kingdom to come will not be soiled by anything evil, it all will be cast out before it appears.
So you couldn't find your objective hat, hey?
- Joined
- 14 Mar 15
- Moves
- 29847
24 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidAgain, would you truly not find it bizarre and wholly opposite to the character of such a deity (with all the qualities identified) if I added, "Oh, and he will also torment non-believers for all eternity in hell"?
I think you are under the notion that somehow we are good people, and the thought of God is evil; instead, that God created us who is good, and we are who have shunned our purposes in life with God. Going forward to the eternal Kingdom to come will not be soiled by anything evil, it all will be cast out before it appears.
Please evidence why 'eternal' torment is necessary or compatible with a 'good' God. (Rather than simply mitigating with 'cast out' ).
24 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYou agreed that God is good and just therefore what He does and wills, will be just and good. The moral framework of everything that God does will be good and just, the issue you are having a difficult time squaring with this is that the evil within mankind warrants such a judgment. You are still using your cookie-cutter god without applying all of God’s attributes to all things.
Again, would you truly not find it bizarre and wholly opposite to the character of such a deity (with all the qualities identified) if I added, "Oh, and he will also torment non-believers for all eternity in hell"?
Please evidence why 'eternal' torment is necessary or compatible with a 'good' God. (Rather than simply mitigating with 'cast out' ).
Why do you limit yourself to non-believers with your complaints, we will all be judged the same way by God there is no distinction.
- Joined
- 14 Mar 15
- Moves
- 29847
24 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidSorry Kelly, but what I am trying to 'square it with' is eternal torment and why a good God would 'want' or 'allow' that.
You agreed that God is good and just therefore what He does and wills, will be just and good. The moral framework of everything that God does will be good and just, the issue you are having a difficult time squaring with this is that the evil within mankind warrants such a judgment. You are still using your cookie-cutter god without applying all of God’s attributes to all th ...[text shortened]... n-believers with your complaints, we will all be judged the same way by God there is no distinction.
How about addressing 'that' conundrum.
24 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI think he's telling you 'It's good because he believes it's good', a.k.a. 'It is because it is'.
Sorry Kelly, but what I am trying to 'square it with' is eternal torment and why a good God would 'want' or 'allow' that.
How about addressing 'that' conundrum.
24 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidBecause KellyJay believes his God figure gets very, very, very, VERY angry with human beings who think KellyJay's notion of a God figure is morally ludicrous.
Sorry Kelly, but what I am trying to 'square it with' is eternal torment and why a good God would 'want' or 'allow' that.
- Joined
- 16 Feb 08
- Moves
- 121656
24 Sep 19
Sonship, KellyJay and SecondSon...
Subtopic:
Do either of you believe that my rejecting that doctrine of eternal suffering (or whatever terminology you choose to give it) either on its own as a rejection, or together with my vociferous attacks on it in this forum constitute me being cast into the lake of fire?
24 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidIf one is evil without the redemption offered than that is it, degrees of who is bad and worse are not considered in the equation. God’s Kingdom is being setup and nothing no matter how small of any contamination of evil is going to be let in. There is only only one place for evil to go.
Sorry Kelly, but what I am trying to 'square it with' is eternal torment and why a good God would 'want' or 'allow' that.
How about addressing 'that' conundrum.
- Joined
- 14 Mar 15
- Moves
- 29847
24 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidYes, you have explained that. I'm still waiting for you to explain why it is necessary for anyone to spend eternity in torment. Why does your God require that? Why torment?
If one is evil without the redemption offered than that is it, degrees of who is bad and worse are not considered in the equation. God’s Kingdom is being setup and nothing no matter how small of any contamination of evil is going to be let in. There is only only one place for evil to go.