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Here’s the OP for you again sonship. And remember this thread was only started because you called my integrity into question about the use of the phrase “burnt alive”.
Over to you.
Ok this thread is specifically calling SecondSon and Sonship to the platform to discuss precisely what it is we all need to know about Jesus and his alleged oversight of the burning of people in Hell for eternity. I’d include JellyKay but he’s got me on ignore as usual.
Why am I starting this thread? Both of the protagonists mentioned are keen to highlight the literalism of eternal suffering, or everlasting punishment, but both are reluctant to step up to the mark and stand up for what THEY believe this doctrine actually really entails.
Here is my opening gambit:
I contest that the doctrine of death, the doctrine of eternal suffering as laid out by those who believe in it and as it has been discussed in dozens of threads over years in this forum, fundamentally describes a version of the Christian God, including the “Lamb” (Jesus) overseeing the deliberate, purposeful burning alive of what will effectively be billions of non-christians who are supernaturally kept alive to endure this suffering for eternity. That is the actual outworking of this doctrine.
Sonship, SecondSon, if I am misrepresenting this doctrine or what you believe about it, please feel free to step in and correct my understanding.
Thank you
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@divegeester
I asked you also to show where the term "everlasting life" or "eternal life" was applied to those not redeemed, not recorded in the book of life.
Did you ever do it?
No. I don't think so. Correct me if you did, but only so.
So your "burns people ALIVE for eternity" is your invention.
That comment of mine is directly related to your OP. Which reads like the brash egotistical boasting of one of those TV World Wrestling champs.
Now you can tell us if the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 was alive in torment or dead in torment. My Bible says he was dead and in torment -
" ... and the rich man also DIED and was buried. And in Hades [Hell] he lifted up his eyes ... I am in anguish in this flame ..." (vs. 22,23)
Don't ask me how you lift up your eyes in Hades or feel discomfort there. Nor ask me of the physics of flames in Hades. I don't know. I have no experience. No one has ever come back from Hades to explain how.
We only have the word of Jesus Christ who did die and rise again. He's an authority on this unknown realm. You can believe Him. Or you can choose not to. Right?
Now in your next post you can argue that the DEAD rich man was being burned ALIVE contrary to what the Scriptures say.
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@sonship saidI don’t know the answer to your pointless question.
@divegeester
I asked you also to show where the term "everlasting life" or "eternal life" was applied to those not redeemed, not recorded in the book of life.
Did you ever do it?
No. I don't think so. Correct me if you did, but only so.
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@sonship saidAny time, and I really do mean any time, night or day...that you feel you wish to demonstrate that your version of Jesus is not in Hell overseeing the burning alive of a group of people...
@divegeester
I asked you also to show where the term "everlasting life" or "eternal life" was applied to those not redeemed, not recorded in the book of life.
Did you ever do it?
No. I don't think so. Correct me if you did, but only so.
So your "burns people ALIVE for eternity" is your invention.
That comment of mine is directly related to ...[text shortened]... can argue that the DEAD rich man was being burned ALIVE contrary to what the Scriptures say.
Please feel most welcome to do so.
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Any time, and I really do mean any time, night or day...that you feel you wish to demonstrate that your version of Jesus is not in Hell overseeing the burning alive of a group of people...
Please feel most welcome to do so.
You feel free to show me in the Bible the term "everlasting LIFE" or "eternal LIFE" applied to those lost to eternal punishment.
Any time.
If you ever do then I will accept your phrase "burns people alive for eternity". Until then, I do not have to accept it.
Clear?
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@sonship saidI have no idea, I’ve already told you I have no idea. Why not start a thread on it and see if anyone is interested?
@divegeester
You feel free to show me in the Bible the term "everlasting LIFE" or "eternal LIFE" to those lost to eternal punishment.
Any time.
If you ever do then I will accept your phrase "burns people alive for eternity". Until then, I do not have to accept it.
Clear?
This thread is about YOUR version of Jesus being in Hell overseeing the burning alive of a groups of people.
I’m still waiting for you to tell me otherwise.
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I have no idea, I’ve already told you I have no idea.
Then admit that your OP contains a phraseology which is purely YOUR invention. - The god who burns people alive for eternity .
But you're probably not going to do that because of your love for your phrase. So WAIT more until the day you die for all I care.
I do not have to accept your phrase - burns people alive for eternity regardless of whatever else you would like to slide in there as related.
Clear?
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@sonship saidYes, it’s my interpretation of what you believe. I said as much in the OP, did you actually read it?
@divegeester
I have no idea, I’ve already told you I have no idea.
Then admit that your OP contains a phraseology which is purely YOUR invention. - The god who burns people alive for eternity .
But you're probably not going to do that because of your love for your phrase. So WAIT more until the day you die for all I care.
I do not ha ...[text shortened]... for eternity[/i] regardless of whatever else you would like to slide in there as related.
Clear?
Your challenge is to demonstrate to the forum that YOUR version of Jesus is not in Hell overseeing the burning alive of groups of people.
It’s quite simple sonship.
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Yes, it’s my interpretation of what you believe. I said as much in the OP, did you actually read it?
What makes you think I am obligated to accept your interpretation?
ToO's interpretation is an atheistic worldview with a Jesus who "walked the earth" we should imitate in a sentimental way.
I reject his interpretation.
I do not have to assume YOURS is valid either.
Your challenge is to demonstrate to the forum that YOUR version of Jesus is not in Hell overseeing the burning alive of groups of people.
MY version is not that of "burning ALIVE".
That is YOUR version which you cannot support.
Otherwise show "everlasting life" or eternal life applied to the lost.
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It’s quite simple sonship.
I know.
You always did like to control people. But you cannot control me into arguing as if your "burning people ALIVE for eternity" is biblical.
Now to be thorough in the book of Numbers it does say that some descended alive down into Sheol. But I assume they died when falling down into Sheol as the earth opened up.
And Revelation does say that the beast and the false prophet were cast alive into the lake of fire.
And Matthew 25 does have Christ sending some "goats" alive off to the eternal fire / eternal punishment.
But though the sentence is meted out to them while they are alive, I assume they physically expired upon contact with what kills.
And I wrote BEFORE, a long time ago, about how I see PROPHECY as coming to us in details KNOWN and in some details not yet disclosed.
What we are told is often only the tip of the iceberg.
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So there are your few caveats for discussions's sake and for fairness sake to learn the truth.
But nowhere is life everlasting applied to those under eternal punishment.
One more thing. If the Bible is wrong to teach eternal punishment then you better throw away your Bible and go to another sacred document more to your liking.
And if Jesus taught conscious eternal punishment and there is NO SUCH THING, then Jesus was unrighteous to teach what will not happen. Then you better drop Jesus for being an unrighteous deceiver misrepresenting God, and go to another teacher more to your preference.
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@sonship saidRevelation describes Jesus as being in hell overseeing people being everlastingly burned alive in a lake of fire.
It’s quite simple sonship.
I know.
You always did like to control people. But you cannot control me into arguing as if your "burning people ALIVE for eternity" is biblical.
Now to be thorough in the book of Numbers it does say that some descended alive down into Sheol. But I assume they died when falling down into Sheol as the earth opened up ...[text shortened]... KNOWN and in some details not yet disclosed.
What we are told is often only the tip of the iceberg.
Taking this literally means that your version of Jesus burns people alive for eternity.
Yes it really is that simple.
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@sonship saidBut it IS biblical, here it is...copy pasted from the bible.
You always did like to control people. But you cannot control me into arguing as if your "burning people ALIVE for eternity" is biblical.
“If anyone worships the beast . . . he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever”
Revelation 14:9–11
It is “biblical”. Because you believe that this scripture is literal, your version of Jesus is in there, not mine.
The trap you are in is the same one KellyJay and SecondSon are in. You and they insist that Revelation is literal, all of it. Because if you don’t, if you accept that some of it is NOT literal, then your precious hellfire and damnation doctrine is kaput.
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“If anyone worships the beast . . . he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever”
Revelation 14:9–11
Where is the part that says they are ALIVE forever?
It is “biblical”. Because you believe that this scripture is literal, your version of Jesus is in there, not mine.
Now we're back to Revelation 1:1.
I thought we agreed that there are things made known by SIGNS.
You're upset because the "SIGN" thing cannot reduce the dreaded horrendous prophecy of what happens to God's enemies there in chapter 14 and elsewhere.
We're going in circles.
You: "Its only a SIGN so nothing terrible can happen."
Me: "Who said there cannot be a SIGN of something TERRIBLE to happen?"
You: " You take it literally."
Me: " I take it literal where it appears it should be taken that way and symbolically when it appears more likely that it should be taken that way. Sorry if that doesn't reduce for YOU the terribleness of eternal punishment."
The trap you are in is the same one KellyJay and SecondSon are in. You and they insist that Revelation is literal, all of it.
Quote me on that please.
Get your posters in order.
When you speak with me you speak with me.
When you speak with Kelly or SecondSon then you speak with them.
Maybe we don't say exactly the same thing.
I think we all realize that there is a horrendous nature to Revelation 14 and Revelation 20. Exactly how to take each word may differ somewhat.
I know SIGNS are in Revelation . What I do not proceed to because of that is your apparent wish -
"Oh, IF it is only a SIGN this eternal fire, then there is no cause for alarm."
That's YOUR leap. That is not my leap - my assumption.
There can be a SIGN of something AWFUL.
And of course there can be a SIGN of something tremendously wonderful too.
Because if you don’t, if you accept that some of it is NOT literal, then your precious hellfire and damnation doctrine is kaput.
That's your slander. I don't have to LIKE everything I read in God's revelation. I do hope to believe it. How much of a lake of fire IS a lake of fire, may be an argument. One thing is clear to me - it is not something good but bad and to be saved from.
Whoever's name will not be found written in the book of life will go to a lake of fire which is called "the second death".
It seems right to me that there would be different degrees of punishment. But that is speculation on my part.
And the rich man in Luke 16 was conversational rather than hysterical. And he didn't, if you notice, request to be free. He just requested temporary relief.
It appears that he realized that that is just where he belonged.
Do you see him ask father Abraham to release him OUT of that place of punishment? Do you see him argue that it is not fair or not JUST for him to be there ?
So maybe there are varied levels of torment. Maybe not. I don't know.
It is best to believe in the Lord and Savior Jesus for having your name for sure written in the Lamb's book of life.