07 Oct 19
Dive, pretend you are reading these Bible passages objectively.
You have thousands of years of traditional belief in hell...
You have texts that clearly refer to hell, though the Bible often does have parables, and plenty of other texts referring to the corresponding concept of heaven.
The oldest traditions all believe in hell and advocate it as the proper interpretation. This was not controversial because it was just believed as a natural feature of cosmic justice.
It doesn't matter how much you think it is immoral. In a Biblical context, can you actually maintain your position that hell does not exist?
07 Oct 19
@sonship saidI didn't notice this until right now, I'll answer tomorrow when I can put some time to it.
@KellyJay
Mark 12:27 ?
New American Standard Bible
"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."
Is there something here that shines light on what I wrote about Luke 16:19-31 ?
How does Mark 12:27 help me to understand what was going on with the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 ?
I'm all ears.
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07 Oct 19
@philokalia saidOf course it matters wether I, and indeed the rest of the contemporary freethinking world, think that burning people alive for not following a particular religions belief is immoral and it is quite revealing that you don’t think so.
It doesn't matter how much you think it is immoral. In a Biblical context, can you actually maintain your position that hell does not exist?
It is astonishing to me that you and the other Christians in focus here can maintain your position that Hell does exit.
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07 Oct 19
@kellyjay saidYou didn’t notice what? I await with great interest what it is you have just right now noticed about how Matt 12:27 which is about marriage after the resurrection and which reads:
I didn't notice this until right now, I'll answer tomorrow when I can put some time to it.
“He is not god of the dead he is god of the living”
Helps you with a totally unrelated PARABLE about warning against unbelief and selfishness.
There is no mystery revelation which proves the existence of an immoral god being in a literal hell overseeing the eternal burning alive of non Christians ....and I challenge you explain to me that there is.
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07 Oct 19
@sonship saidNo Mark 12:27.
@divegeester
You didn’t notice what? I await with great interest what it is you have just right now noticed about how Matt 12:27 which is about marriage after the resurrection and which reads:
You meant probably Mark 12:25.
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07 Oct 19
11 edits
There is no mystery revelation which proves the existence of an immoral god being in a literal hell overseeing the eternal burning alive of non Christians ....and I challenge you explain to me that there is.
So there are verses in the text of the New Testament that teach an immoral God ? One of them being Revelation 14:9-12?
I mean to make Revelation 14:9-12 teach a moral God we should read it this way?
" ... If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, He also shall [NOT] drink the wine of the fury of God, ... and he shall [NOT] be tormented in fire and brimstone ... [NOT] before the holy angels and [NOT] before the Lamb.
And the smoke of their tormenting [DOES NOT] go up forever and ever; and [IT IS NOT THAT] they have no rest day and night ..."
Is that how John how should have written what was shown him to teach your moral God?
Then also 15:4 should have been written ?
" ... for Your righteous judgments [HAVE NOT] been manifested"
If we doctor verses to say the opposite of what they say, we will get the moral God? But leaving them as they were written we are taught of the immoral God?
With this is Luke 12:4,5 also teaching of an immoral God?
07 Oct 19
@divegeester said(1) We know that the Bible teaches that those who reject God and who are unrepentant go to hell.
Of course it matters wether I, and indeed the rest of the contemporary freethinking world, think that burning people alive for not following a particular religions belief is immoral and it is quite revealing that you don’t think so.
It is astonishing to me that you and the other Christians in focus here can maintain your position that Hell does exit.
(2) What does the Bible say about the world?
John 15:18-19
“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil.
Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
And a real kicker:
James 4:4
You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
I would be careful with boasting about your proximity to the "freethinking world," which is more or less synonymous with the world of disbelief.
07 Oct 19
@philokalia saidMy state was that of a Christian for approx 25 years. In terms of Christianity, I have been in a state of "disbelief" for approx the last 15 years. Neither state did/has done me any harm.
I would be careful with boasting about your proximity to the "freethinking world," which is more or less synonymous with the world of disbelief.
07 Oct 19
@philokalia said[1] Does knowing this 'coerce' you, so to speak, into continuing to believe and not losing your faith?
We know that the Bible teaches that those who reject God and who are unrepentant go to hell.
[2] What is the purpose of making such a threat against a person who doesn't find it credible?
07 Oct 19
1 edit
@sonship saidThe death that takes us out of this life doesn't mean our lives have ended as it is recorded and referenced by Jesus in scripture. God is the God of the living, and as Jesus told those he was talking to some, all are going to receive good and bad in the next life depending upon what they did in this one. So those he was referring to by name were real people who had died, yet were still experiencing life after dying in this one. When judgment day comes after the 2nd judgment comes there are those entering into the everlasting Kingdom of God, and those found unworthy who will be cast alive into the lake of fire where they will remain forever and ever, when evil is purged from the Kingdom of God.
@KellyJay
Mark 12:27 ?
New American Standard Bible
"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."
Is there something here that shines light on what I wrote about Luke 16:19-31 ?
How does Mark 12:27 help me to understand what was going on with the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 ?
I'm all ears.
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07 Oct 19
@sonship saidYes if you take them literally.
@divegeester
So there are verses in the text of the New Testament that teach an immoral God ?
However unlike KellyJay and SecondSon who claim that Revelation is literal in its entirety (including the multiheaded beasts etc etc), you refuse to be so unequivocal, hiding behind foggy statements about the literalness of Revelation.
I expect you will now make a long convoluted html ladened post trying to justify how the book of Revelation, which is blatantly visions and metaphors, is actually metaphors AND literal in order to protect your beloved precious doctrine of eternal torture.
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07 Oct 19
@philokalia saidNo it doesn’t it’s not literal, and who is “we”?
(1) We know that the Bible teaches that those who reject God and who are unrepentant go to hell.
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07 Oct 19
@philokalia saidI would be careful about boasting about indulging in premarital sex with your girlfriend which is exactly synonymous with fornication which sends you to hell.
I would be careful with boasting about your proximity to the "freethinking world," which is more or less synonymous with the world of disbelief.
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I expect you will now make a long convoluted html ladened post trying to justify how the book of Revelation, which is blatantly visions and metaphors, is actually metaphors AND literal in order to protect your beloved precious doctrine of eternal torture.
Before you get to Revelation, (which you would like to excise out of the New Testament,) you have the Gospel of Matthew. Is Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus teaching about an immoral God ?
By the way, in that passage Jesus tells the goats to "Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (v.41)
But if Jesus is going there WITH them to stand or sit among them, in your teaching, how come He says "Go AWAY FROM Me ...?"
Reach for your cane and hat now and start dancing.