19 Nov 21
4 edits
@kellyjay saidYou are not quoting the gospel of Paul. You are quoting other things Paul preached about and calling it the Gospel of Christ. When I asked for proof that Christ said these things you quoted Paul. If all of the writings of Paul are read and understood there is no conflict with Christ and they both preach the same Gospel.. churches do the twisting and lying as I have pointed out in the opening post. Conflict arises when you cherry pick and remove what Paul did actually say in its entirety or when you twist what Paul said.
And yet when Paul is quoted you suggest that there are conflicts while only declaring them, not putting up scriptures showing the conflicts. Which means you are only giving us your opinion each time without showing why with direct scriptural quotes.
There isn’t a conflict between them. Except when you declare that there are with only your opinion.
I realise you are pretty slow so I will take my time and repeat it. The correct Gospel of Christ [which Paul did actually repeat], must have these 4 core elements
1. Faith and Baptism
2. A change of lifestyle, repentance and avoiding sin
3. Righteousness and Good Works
4. The consequences of disobedience
The reason why that is the complete Gospel of Christ is that it tells the believer what they need to DO to get eternal life in the Kingdom of God. Paul also did in fact preach ALL 4 of those.
BUT ... YOUR CHURCH GOSPEL DOES NOT HAVE ALL THESE CORE ELEMENTS.
YOUR CHURCH PREACHES #1 ONLY, SAVED BY GRACE, AND CALLS THAT THE GOSPEL. THAT IS NOT THE GOSPEL.
You and your church ignores the Gospel of Christ.
And your church ignores the gospel of Paul.
You created your own gospel
19 Nov 21
1 edit
@medullah saidI am not convinced that the 'thou shalt not kill' commandments applies to governments. It applies to individuals only and even so only in special cases; A man is permitted to kill in self defence or to protect his family or loved ones.
One of things that have always left me a bit bewildered is that way that churches bend to the will of the state during armed conflict.
"Thou shalt not kill" should mean that. There has ben no armed conflict between nations that justified Christians getting involved that I can think of in the last 100 years, but I'm sure that i will get pelters over that expressed opinion.
Govts are required to take care of their people. That involves killing unfortunately, eg when a killer is caught the bible gives the govt the right to kill the killer. Also in the case of war, people are going to die. There is no way around it.
So for me the 'thou shalt not kill' command, applies to cold blooded murder. Now if the govt is doing that then that is wrong.
19 Nov 21
@rajk999 saidLike I said your opinion unless you show the truth next to the error you are only expressing what you think.
You are not quoting the gospel of Paul. You are quoting other things Paul preached about and calling it the Gospel of Christ. When I asked for proof that Christ said these things you quoted Paul. If all of the writings of Paul are read and understood there is no conflict with Christ and they both preach the same Gospel.. churches do the twisting and lying as I have pointed o ...[text shortened]... the Gospel of Christ.
And your church ignores the gospel of Paul.
You created your own gospel[/b]
19 Nov 21
@rajk999 saidCorrect
You are not quoting the gospel of Paul. You are quoting other things Paul preached about and calling it the Gospel of Christ. When I asked for proof that Christ said these things you quoted Paul. If all of the writings of Paul are read and understood there is no conflict with Christ and they both preach the same Gospel.. churches do the twisting and lying as I have pointed o ...[text shortened]... the Gospel of Christ.
And your church ignores the gospel of Paul.
You created your own gospel[/b]
Faith without works is dead.
It isn’t a question of just believing in Christ. You have do as he tells you.
19 Nov 21
1 edit
@medullah saidIndeed ... Faith without works is the gospel of the churches, and here sonship and KJ are arguing in favour of that false gospel.
Correct
Faith without works is dead.
It isn’t a question of just believing in Christ. You have do as he tells you.
Faith without works is DEAD and Faith with Works, is the Gospel of Christ and the Apostles.
Maybe you missed the recent argument in the thread 'The gospel'. KJ claimed that the Gospel of Christ says eternal life is a free gift. Free means there is nothing to do to get eternal life. When I asked him to show where Jesus said that he could not provide the reference. Sonship produced a quote from Paul. These two jokers really do not understand the Gospel.
Dead faith is their gospel... pathetic.
19 Nov 21
@rajk999 saidYou have to change what I have been saying to make your point.
Indeed ... Faith without works is the gospel of the churches, and here sonship and KJ are arguing in favour of that false gospel.
Faith without works is DEAD and Faith with Works, is the Gospel of Christ and the Apostles.
Maybe you missed the recent argument in the thread 'The gospel'. KJ claimed that the Gospel of Christ says eternal life is a free gift. Free mean ...[text shortened]... l. These two jokers really do not understand the Gospel.
Dead faith is their gospel... pathetic.
19 Nov 21
@kellyjay saidHow about bite sized pieces then?
Excellent bullet points; how about specific references to scripture to back up each of them? How about specific references to scripture that show what you call the gospel of Jesus is actually in the Bible and not just between your ears.
Point seems straight forward.
4. The consequences of disobedience
and the scripture to support
Matth 7: 20:24
Therefore by their fruits you will know them. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock
19 Nov 21
@medullah saidAnd in this one Jesus says
How about bite sized pieces then?
Point seems straight forward.
4. The consequences of disobedience
and the scripture to support
Matth 7: 20:24
Therefore by their fruits you will know them. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, ...[text shortened]... these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock
... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20 KJV)
This tells me that if a professed teacher fails to teach people to OBSEERVE what Jesus commands, then that man is a false teacher. Sonship and KJ falls into this category.
19 Nov 21
@Rajk999
You can get a teacher that makes mistakes, as we are all human and therefore imperfect.
Somebody that would fall more into the category that you are outlining in my book would be The Pope (doesn't he make wonderful hand gestures?).
19 Nov 21
@medullah saidWhat have I said that disagrees with that? We do not get right with God so that we can sin against Him! The point is we cannot earn our salvation; we don't earn it; it isn't by our works of righteousness that we are saved; it is by the grace of God. The exact text you choose has the people telling Jesus what works they did in His name; it wasn't enough, why, what was His response? He didn't deny anything they did; they were not going to be able to lie to Him; what they were trusting Him was their efforts. I'm NOT saying we will not do the good works we are commanded to, but it isn't to be saved, on the contrary, it is because we are.
How about bite sized pieces then?
Point seems straight forward.
4. The consequences of disobedience
and the scripture to support
Matth 7: 20:24
Therefore by their fruits you will know them. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, ...[text shortened]... these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
It was their works that they were relying on, not the grace of God, not the fellowship they had with Him. We are all sinners; that is our default condition; because of His love for us, we have an opportunity to come to God, not because we earn it, but because He offers it.
Titus 3:4-6
English Standard Version
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
20 Nov 21
1 edit
@kellyjay saidYou are adding to what Jesus said. You will never find this statement you made, in the Gospel of Christ ... The point is we cannot earn our salvation; we don't earn it; it isn't by our works of righteousness that we are saved; it is by the grace of God... But you keep repeating it at every chance you get even though it is irrelevant. That statement is NOT in the Gospel of Christ. It is therefore not the Gospel
What have I said that disagrees with that? We do not get right with God so that we can sin against Him! The point is we cannot earn our salvation; we don't earn it; it isn't by our works of righteousness that we are saved; it is by the grace of God. The exact text you choose has the people telling Jesus what works they did in His name; it wasn't enough, why, what was His res ...[text shortened]... n and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Also you continue to misinterpret the words of Jesus here, wilfully and deliberately.
You say ...He didn't deny anything they did; ..
Jesus said . depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
So they claimed to do good wonderful works and Jesus called them evil workers. I would say that is a clear denial that their works were good. There is no part of the bible where good works are condemned. That false doctrine you preach condemning good works comes from your church, not from the bible. You condemn good works all the time and when you are called out for doing it you deny it.
Your entire post is irrelevant and nonsensical and not in the teachings of Christ. Your doctrine is a twisted and incorrect version of the teachings of Paul.
20 Nov 21
@medullah saidYes, I would say that the Pope has more to answer for. As for these two here [D&D] they are not making mistakes, they are wilfully and knowingly preaching doctrines that run contrary to the teachings and Gospel of Christ. And they will continue doing it because their church is more important than God or Christ... they worship the church.
@Rajk999
You can get a teacher that makes mistakes, as we are all human and therefore imperfect.
Somebody that would fall more into the category that you are outlining in my book would be The Pope (doesn't he make wonderful hand gestures?).