What!? Not Talk About the Trinity ?

Originally posted by sonship

There is absolutely nothing in the teachings of Christ which says that the mystery of Gods nature need to be understood.

[b]John 14:10,11 indicates that He realized the relationship between Him and the Father was mysterious to His twelve disciples.[/b]

Are you right in your head? Where does Jesus say it needs to be understood any further than he stated in John 14?

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14:10-11 KJV)

Originally posted by divegeester

How do you [think] the disciples interpreted:

"hear oh Israel the Lord your God in one"?

They heard it as if there is one God, the God of Israel.

The disciples eventually came to realize that the One who was walking with them for three and one half years, Who lived a glorious life doing and saying things only God could do and say, believed that He was God become a man - the Son of God.

In there transition into this realization they said certain things like this for example, when he calmed the raging storm.

" And the men marveled, saying, What kind of man is this that even the winds and the sea obey Him ?" (Matt. 8;27)

It began to dawn upon them more and more that this was an extraordinary man, even for a prophet.

Then when He told them that to live they must eat His flesh and drink His blood, they wanted to go away. But they couldn't because this One had words of eternal life.

" Jesus therefore said to the twelve, Do you also want to go away?
Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. " (John 6:67,68)

I suppose, little by little, they began to realize this Man with them was divine.

Then one asked for Him to just cut to the chase and SHOW them this Father!

" Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father and it is sufficient for us.

Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Phillip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father." (John 14:8,9)

I am sure Phillip knew the prayer that the Jehovah their God was one. But what could he do? This One talked of His Father. And when Phillip cut to the chase and requested that Jesus just SHOW THEM this Father of His, to their amazement He replied -

"Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Phillip"

Jesus could well have gone on to explain - "Phillip, don't you remember what Isaiah wrote? The child born will be called the Mighty God. Don't you remember that the Son given will be called Eternal Father. He who has seen Me has seen the Father."

They saw Jesus forgive men of their sins as only God can do.
They saw Jesus heal a man blind from birth.
They saw Jesus raise a child, a little girl, and Lazarus from the dead!

All the time they knew the Shema prayer. And Jesus probably never said disputed it that is was about His Father. He quoted it in teaching (Mark 12:29).

They saw Him weep over Jerusalem and speak of wanting many times to hover over her like a bird hovering over her brood. They probably thought it strange that the implication was that He was the Old Testament God.

" Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often [in Old Testament times] I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!' (Matt. 23:37)

They heard this man speak as the one God of Israel concerning the persecution of the Old Testament prophets.

Eventually, they heard Him say for them to believe in God and to believe also in Him.

"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me." (John 14:1)

Eventually, after the resurrection they realized that this Man who spoke of God as His Father was God become a man.

" Then He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here and see My hands, and bring your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.

Thomas answeed and said to Him, My Lord and my God." (Jhn 20:27,28)

I think knowing Deuteronomy 6:4-9 about the God of Israel being one God, they caved in to believe that this one God had a Son. And this Son was God become a man.
Otherwise Thomas's confession would have been a violation of the commandment not to lift up the Lord's name in vain.

Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for lifting up God's name in vain with the exclamation " ... my God!". Rather He said, because Thomas had seen, Thomas had believed.

Jesus is my Lord and my God and Deuteronomy 6:4-9 is still true.

Originally posted by sonship
..Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for lifting up God's name in vain with the exclamation [b]" ... my God!".

Jesus did not rebuke Thomas, and neither did Jesus rebuke Peter for saying: .. thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Why therefore are you attempting to rebuke Christians who say that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God like Peter and the other disciples believed?

I will answer - you have elevated the teachings of Witness Lee and others above that of Christ. You and your false doctrines are not of Jesus Christ. Nothing you say is of Christ but of men.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Jesus did not rebuke Thomas, and neither did Jesus rebuke Peter for saying: .. thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

That is right. In both cases the truth was being confessed.

Why therefore are you attempting to rebuke Christians who say that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God like Peter and the other disciples believed?

I am not doing so. You lie.

I sonship confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God. Please join me in the confession, anyone.

I will answer -

You will answer your own false accusation. Quote me first for discouraging anyone from saying Jesus is the Son of God.

you have elevated the teachings of Witness Lee

I have simply brought out also that Thomas confessed Jesus as his Lord and his God. (John 20:28).

We reserve the right to believe both confessions. For it has become apparent to us also.

and others above that of Christ.

John 20:28 is in the New Testament. Witness Lee didn't put it there.

You and your false doctrines

John 20:28 and John 1:1,14 are in the Bible.

are not of Jesus Christ. Nothing you say is of Christ but of men.

Jesus warned us to what degree the spiritually blind would go to oppose the Gospel.

" They will put you out of the synagogues; but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.

And these things they will do because they have not known the Father nor Me." (John 16:2,3)

Originally posted by sonship

Jesus did not rebuke Thomas, and neither did Jesus rebuke Peter for saying: .. thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

You previously said that you would not fellowship with Christians who believe that Jesus is not God. Have you changed your mind?

Originally posted by Rajk999
You previously said that you would not fellowship with Christians who believe that Jesus is not God. Have you changed your mind?

Give this Forum a Quotation that forms the basis of this charge and question.

Originally posted by sonship

How do you [think] the disciples interpreted:

"hear oh Israel the Lord your God in one"?

They heard it as if there is one God, the God of Israel.

The disciples eventually came to realize that the One who was walking with them for three and one half years, Who lived a glorious life doing and saying things only God could do an ...[text shortened]... homas had believed.

Jesus is my Lord and my God and [b]Deuteronomy 6:4-9 is still true.[/b]

So they wouldn't have interpreted as three persons then?

Originally posted by FMF to sonship
Do you believe that subscribing to the Trinity dogma or not subscribing to the Trinity dogma makes any difference to a believer's "salvation"?

Did sonship ever give you a reply to this? I can't find it.

Originally posted by divegeester
Did sonship ever give you a reply to this? I can't find it.

Yes.

Originally posted by divegeester
So they wouldn't have interpreted as three persons then?

They would have had no qualms about worshiping Jesus as God in spite of however they might have discussed Deut. 4:6-9.

Originally posted by sonship
They would have had no qualms about worshiping [b]Jesus as God in spite of however they might have discussed Deut. 4:6-9.[/b]

But you admit they would not interpret that scripture as a trinity?

Originally posted by sonship
Yes.

Could you please say where as I'd like to read it. Thanks.

Originally posted by divegeester
Did sonship ever give you a reply to this? I can't find it.

Not an unequivocal one. No. He threw in a fuzzy variable - something to do with whether or not a believer was "conversant on the issues" - into his "answer" in order to hedge and make it more opaque. sonship above all is an ideologue so, like all ideologues, he takes care that his declarations are either hedge-ready or he buries them like a hairdrier in a huge basket of towels. 😛

Originally posted by FMF
Not an unequivocal one. No. He threw in a fuzzy variable - something to do with whether or not a believer was "conversant on the issues" - into his "answer" in order to hedge and make it more opaque. sonship above all is an ideologue so, like all ideologues, he takes care that his declarations are either hedge-ready or he buries them like a hairdrier in a huge basket of towels. 😛

I'd still like to hear what he has to say on that topic. In my experience I have a lot of Christians who take a hard line doctrine while often try to link it to salvation.

For example RJhinds linked the teaching of eternal suffering to salvation; as you will remember he even infamously told me I deserved to burn in hell for eternity for not believing in the teaching of burning in hell for eternity.

Originally posted by divegeester
Could you please say where as I'd like to read it. Thanks.

Essentially to FMF's trick question I think I basically answered with Romans 8:9 as the cardinal passage about salvation.

"Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him."

Of course the trick in his question is to change having "the Spirit of Christ" to be a matter of subscribing or not to a "Trinity dogma." That he can get his mind around. He has no concept whatsoever of the Spirit of Christ living in a man.