Originally posted by sonshipHe's right though, you aren't answering his question.
Essentially to FMF's trick question I think I basically answered with [b]Romans 8:9 as the cardinal passage about salvation.
"Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him."
Of course the trick in his question is to change having "the Spirit of Christ" to be a matter of subscribing or not to ...[text shortened]... s mind around. He has no concept whatsoever of the Spirit of Christ living in a man.[/b]
In your opinion/belief, is it possible to completely reject the trinity teaching and still be saved and filled with the spirit of Christ?
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Originally posted by divegeesterThe question is essential someone doesn't talk just like you about this with the same phraseologies and same explanations, will you recognize him as being saved?
He's right though, you aren't answering his question.
In your opinion/belief, is it possible to completely reject the trinity teaching and still be saved and filled with the spirit of Christ?
And my answer is who ever has the of Christ is His. Wherever does not have the Spirit of Christ is not of Him.
I do not always know who has or who does not have the Spirit of Christ. God knows for sure. I am saying nothing new.
The question is an attempt to make me sectarian.
FMF loves to see Christians be sectarian with one another because it encourages him that the whole Gospel is invalid.
Originally posted by sonshipNot so. The question is an attempt to get you to just state what you believe.
The question is an attempt to make me sectarian.
FMF loves to see Christians be sectarian with one another because it encourages him that the whole Gospel is invalid.
Here it is one last time: Do you believe that subscribing to the Trinity dogma or not subscribing to the Trinity dogma makes any difference to a believer's "salvation"?
The fact that Christians are sectarian has nothing [that I can think of off the top of my head] to do with why I find the various claims that they make about God and about Jesus incoherent and unconvincing.
I don't recall ever utilizing the chaney3 line of "attack" on the validity of stuff that Christians say which is along the lines of you're all saying different things! you're all saying different things! you can't be all right! some of you are wrong! It can be all valid! so maybe the whole gospel is invalid!
You haven't heard me make that argument regarding 'sectarianism' here, as I think you well know. Perhaps you are yet again, being disingenuous.
I take what a Christian claims and the fact that he or she chooses to claim it at face value and give my take based on its merits. The fact that Christians can be sectarian has little to do with it.
Your moral philosophy, rooted as it is in a kind of supernatural gangsterism, coercion, vengeance and ludicrously grotesque threats of torture, strikes me as morally invalid and lacking in any common sense, in and of itself, and has nothing much to do with any ideological sectarianism you might be involved in.
When you compared my lack of belief in the divinity of Jesus to holocaust denial, or claimed that I had probably personally caused hundreds of people on this forum to face a punishment of torture in burning agony for eternity, I did not use any mention of Christian sectarianism to frame your assertions as invalid and far fetched.
Originally posted by sonshipThe question is one of doctrine and your inability to give a straight answer is what makes you sectarian. Or are you saying it is possible to reject the trinity and be saved? You are not being clear.
The question is essential someone doesn't talk just like you about this with the same phraseologies and same explanations, will you recognize him as being saved?
And my answer is who ever has the of Christ is His. Wherever does not have the Spirit of Christ is not of Him.
I do not always know who has or who does not have the Spirit of Christ. God kn ...[text shortened]... stians be sectarian with one another because it encourages him that the whole Gospel is invalid.
You may ask me the same thing and I'll give you a straight answer.
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1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
NKJV
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Originally posted by divegeesterBut you believe Jesus is three persons? Is that what you're saying?
I believe God is one person. Trinitarians believe God is three persons.
You don't need a "Masters" to figure it out 😉
And, btw, one would think that as long as you've been harping on this, you'd finally get it right, instead of holding to your profoundly error-filled ideas of what Trinitarians believe.
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Originally posted by divegeesterPerhaps it is possible depending on what "the trinity doctrine" means to someone.
Is it possible to have the spirit of Christ and reject the trinity doctrine?
I don't have to shoulder the responsibility of knowing definitely about that. Jesus Christ has already informed His disciples that at times they will not be able to discern the real believers from the false believers in the world (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43)
If any of your questioning along this line, or FMF's is a desperate attempt to get me to insist that I DO always know who is a real or false believer, it will be futile.
So I simply admit what the NT says -
" yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of Him." (Rom. 8:9b)
i don't know why you do not want to capitalize "Spirit" in writing "the Spirit of Christ".
A weak Christian would be better served to understand that Christ is God, not for doctrinal purity but for organic life realization. But we are instructed to receive one another as God has received each of us to the glory of Christ, even if we are weak in faith.
"Therefore receive one another, as Christ also received you to the glory of God." (Rom. 15:7)
"Now him who is weak in faith receive, but not for the purpose of passing judgments on his convictions." ( Rom. 14:1)
Do you feel like you are being over examined ?
Well, I am a Christian. And when you glibly say a couple of times something about the Trinity being a false teaching, I may speak up and defend that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
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Originally posted by divegeester
The question is one of doctrine and your inability to give a straight answer is what makes you sectarian. Or are you saying it is possible to reject the trinity and be saved? You are not being clear.
I am not sure why this thread has to be a thread about who is and who is not saved.
It seems that there are pressures trying to morph the discussion into an issue of who is and who is not saved. My only contribution to that part of anyone's curiosity as far as this thread goes is -
"Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of Him." (Rom. 8:9b)
If you know that you do not believe that Jesus is God incarnate and yet you know that you are saved, that should be the end of that part of the inquiry. And then we can go on to discuss whether or not the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God..
Where's the best understanding of what Scripture reveals about this ?
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Originally posted by FMFI read your "feedback".
Not so. The question is an attempt to get you to just state what you believe.
Here it is one last time: Do you believe that subscribing to the Trinity dogma or not subscribing to the Trinity dogma makes any difference to a believer's "salvation"?
The fact that Christians are sectarian has nothing [that I can think of off the top of my head] to do with why ...[text shortened]... t use any mention of Christian sectarianism to frame your assertions as invalid and far fetched.
I am going to budget my time of writing tonight towards some other posters wanting to examine the relevant passages.
The title I gave to this thread What!? Not Talk About the Trinity? was to resist the pressure from a few posters that Christians should kind of, sweep this little matter into the corner and not bring it forth as a kind of embarrassment.
Hey, I said, "Let's talk about this."
27 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipThe pressure comes about because you have implied that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible regarding God/Christ/Holy Spirit does not have Christ and therefore is not saved.The question is one of doctrine and your inability to give a straight answer is what makes you sectarian. Or are you saying it is possible to reject the trinity and be saved? You are not being clear.
I am not sure why this thread has to be a thread about who is and who is not saved.
It seems that there are pressures trying to morph ...[text shortened]... ly Spirit is God..
Where's the best understanding of what Scripture reveals about this ?[/b]
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Originally posted by Rajk999I don't think I have done that. But maybe I made some who are sensitive about their standing feel over examined.
The pressure comes about because you have implied that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible regarding God/Christ/Holy Spirit does not have Christ and therefore is not saved.
If Moslems believe in God they cannot say they are followers of Jesus just because of that. If Orthodox Jews strongly believe in God, they cannot say they are Christians because of that. Bahai's and Unitarians may also say they believe in God. But if they fight against the Incarnation of God in Jesus Christ, I am not shy to defend my faith.
I leave up to the very personal interaction of the Holy Spirit and their private consciences to be assured of their salvation or not.
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Originally posted by sonshipAnd a Trinitarian can say he believes in God, but can follow an "image" not founded on the scriptures. That is, an "accurate" rendering of the scriptures.
I don't think I have done that. But maybe I made some who are sensitive about their standing feel over examined.
If Moslems believe in God they cannot say they are followers of Jesus just because of that. If Orthodox Jews strongly believe in God, they cannot say they are Christians because of that. Bahai's and Unitarians may also say they believe in God. ...[text shortened]... action of the Holy Spirit and their private consciences to be assured of their salvation or not.
I learned a long time ago, that if one god dies and another god raises him up, that makes 2 gods in the story.
1+1=2 but to some 1+1=1. Or should I say 3?
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Originally posted by checkbaiterIn the Bible you have God sending God. You have God the sender and God the One being sent - Zechariah 2:8-11
And a Trinitarian can say he believes in God, but can follow an "image" not founded on the scriptures. That is, an "accurate" rendering of the scriptures.
I learned a long time ago, that if one god dies and another god raises him up, that makes 2 gods in the story.
1+1=2 but to some 1+1=1. Or should I say 3?
You also have the interchangeable Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah in some places in the Old Testament.
We also have "One Lord" Jesus Christ (Eph. 4:5) and yet " the Lord and ... His Christ " (Rev. 11:15)
By the way, I also do believe that God cannot die. Or that death is meaningless to God.
Some people arguing that Christ cannot be God argue that the Father did not die.
And I say that that is true.
But what can we do if the Son given is called the Eternal Father and to see the Son is to see the Father and the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father ?
Is your Jesus just a miraculously born baby or One whose goings forth are from eternity ? (Micah 5:2)
27 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipAnd yet here you are sweeping a germane question - that other Christians have addressed - "into the corner" in what appears to be your efforts to avoid "a kind of embarrassment" for you. Checkbaiter felt able to answer it. But you seem to want to keep your view secret.
The title I gave to this thread [b]What!? Not Talk About the Trinity? was to resist the pressure from a few posters that Christians should kind of, sweep this little matter into the corner and not bring it forth as a kind of embarrassment.[/b]