What!? Not Talk About the Trinity ?

Originally posted by divegeester
You really should start a blog, that way you will be able to exclude anyone from disagreeing with you 😉

That would not be my main purpose. I am somewhat of an apologist. If I didn't like people to disagree with me on the Gospel, I would not have so many hundreds of posts spanning many years on this Forum, not to mention others.

Now recently you said in your minimalistic few, that you have explained something to me many times before. So I sat and thought, "Hmm. Let me recall what divegeester said." But I could not recall really important points which you many times explained before.

I know you hate the matter of the lake of fire.
I THINK you believe in the incarnation of God in Christ.
It seems you complain when the Triune God is mentioned or the Trinity.

I don't recall these many times you have explained too many other things besides these. But if you find going over it is monotonous, don't.

Anyway for this thread: God - the Father, God - the Son, God - the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by chaney3
What if I prove to you that your view of Jesus is wrong Dive.

And due to your error, you will never see Heaven.

Please go ahead; I welcome your challenge and insight.

Originally posted by sonship
That would not be my main purpose. I am somewhat of an apologist. If I didn't like people to disagree with me on the Gospel, I would not have so many hundreds of posts spanning many years on this Forum, not to mention others.

Now recently you said in your minimalistic few, that you have explained something to me many times before. So I sat and thought, ...[text shortened]... ay for this thread: [b]God - the Father, God - the Son, God - the Holy Spirit.[/b]

Does my outright rejection of your teaching of the trinity doctrine, preclude me from being filled with the spirit of Christ and therefore (according to your definition of it..), from salvation?

Originally posted by Rajk999
'Ungodliness' has nothing to do with a lack of belief in God, neither does the word 'godlessness'. Please try to educate yourself a bit

Your ignorance of the meaning of simple words is your downfall.

What do you think the word "godless" means?

Originally posted by KellyJay
What do you think the word "godless" means?

According to Strongs 'ungodliness' from your Romans 1:18 quote means:

asebeia [as-eb'-i-ah]
impiety, wickedness

This word is used 6 times in the New Testament as follows:

Rom_1:17-18,
Rom_11:26,
2Ti_2:16,
Tit_2:12
Jud_1:15
Jud_1:18

In all cases without exception it is used to denote POOR BEHVAIOUR / CONDUCT / WICKEDNESS and has nothing to do with belief in God.

As for 'godless', it is the same story. 'Godless' does not appear in the KJV but the expression 'without God' does and it refers to those who continue with a sinful life. It has nothing to do with either believing in God or disbelieving in God. Read Pauls comment on those that are without God:

I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13 KJV)

These are believers in God, which Paul refers to as Godless because they continue in a sinful lifestyle. They claim to believe in God, but their behavior and conduct is referred to as being without God. It is clear that it is refraining from a sinful llifestyle that determines whether or not someone is 'WITH GOD' or 'WITHOUT GOD'. What someone proffesses with their mouth is of no relevance.

Originally posted by KellyJay
What do you think the word "godless" means?

Here is another passage that describes those who are godless or without God. God does not make his abode with them and there are conditions for God abiding with someone and it has nothing to do with belief in God.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10 KJV)

If someone keeps Christ's commandments that person abides in Christ and in God, even if that person claims not to believe in God.

Originally posted by divegeester
Does my outright rejection of your teaching of the trinity doctrine, preclude me from being filled with the spirit of Christ and therefore (according to your definition of it..), from salvation?

I have answered this question. I answered it in terms of having the Spirit of Christ not being filled with the Spirit of Christ.


You are still asking me this ? What is your idea of my teaching of the trinity ?
Maybe the Trinity that you don't believe in is not the Trinity that I teach.

I am not going to wrap myself around anyone's strawman argument and claim it to be my teaching about the Trinity. How do I know you are not trying to shove your strawman arguments about the Trinity down my throat and interrogate me according to your strawman ?

What is my teaching of the Trinity that you want to conduct your Inquisition about?
Put some meat on it please and don't come back with a few words of a sparsely phrased retort.

Originally posted by sonship
I have answered this question.

You have responded , but not answered the question. It's a yes or no answer: it either precludes me or it doesn't.

I enjoy these protracted exchanges with you sectarian types; you simply cannot bring yourself to admit in writing what it is you believe.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Here is another passage that describes those who are godless or without God. God does not make his abode with them and there are conditions for God abiding with someone and it has nothing to do with belief in God.

[i] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10 K ...[text shortened]... ments that person abides in Christ and in God, even if that person claims not to believe in God.

I agree that those that receive God's Spirit can keep God's commandments, they can even
follow God's lead, they can do the works that God has called us too. You on the other hand
are pushing the doctrine that anyone who does good works by the virtue of their works is
of God, which is backwards to the scriptures. We go to God then we are able to do the
works of God.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I agree that those that receive God's Spirit can keep God's commandments, they can even
follow God's lead, they can do the works that God has called us too. You on the other hand
are pushing the doctrine that anyone who does good works by the virtue of their works is
of God, which is backwards to the scriptures. We go to God then we are able to do the
works of God.

NOWHERE does Jesus say "..those that receive God's Spirit can keep God's commandments"

Instead Jesus says:

IF YOU KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS
- Then you get eternal life
- Then you are His disciple
- Then you will never see death
- Then you love Jesus and Then Jesus will abide with you
- Then the Comforter comes to you
- Then the Holy Sprit Gifts will be dispensed to you
- Then you abide in His love
- Then you are his friend

Which comes first? Keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ.

ONLY THEN can the rest follow.

Its you that have it backwards.

Originally posted by Rajk999
NOWHERE does Jesus say "..those that receive God's Spirit can keep God's commandments"

Instead Jesus says:

IF YOU KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS
- Then you get eternal life
- Then you are His disciple
- Then you will never see death
- Then you love Jesus and Then Jesus will abide with you
- Then the Comforter comes to you
- Then the Holy Spri ...[text shortened]... dments of Jesus Christ.

ONLY THEN can the rest follow.

Its you that have it backwards.[/b]

No one can keep all the commandments.You can't even control the tongue.

Originally posted by Rajk999
NOWHERE does Jesus say "..those that receive God's Spirit can keep God's commandments"

Instead Jesus says:

IF YOU KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS
- Then you get eternal life
- Then you are His disciple
- Then you will never see death
- Then you love Jesus and Then Jesus will abide with you
- Then the Comforter comes to you
- Then the Holy Spri ...[text shortened]... dments of Jesus Christ.

ONLY THEN can the rest follow.

Its you that have it backwards.[/b]

If you are going to quote Jesus, I suggest you actually quote Jesus in context and not just
tell me what you THINK. No one is denying we must keep the Lords commands, what I
am denying is that through good works we are worthy of God's grace.

How can anyone love Jesus if they do not believe in Him?

You really have the timing of all of your "Then" statements off. The quotes are correct in
that each of these things will occur, but they will not occur just because you do good
works. Those that belong to the Lord being filled with God's Spirit will do all the things
you have said, because of what Jesus has done not because they are worthy on their own.


Ephesians 2:8-10New International Version (NIV)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

2 Corinthians 1:21-23New International Version (NIV)
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. I call God as my witness—and I stake my life on it—that it was in order to spare you that I did not return to Corinth.

Ephesians 1:12-14New International Version (NIV)
in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:29-31New International Version (NIV)
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Originally posted by divegeester

You have responded , but not answered the question. It's a yes or no answer: it either precludes me or it doesn't.

Do you want me to say that I know that you are not a regenerated Christian because you argue with me about the Trinity ? I don't know that and try as you'd like I do not commit to informing you if you have the Spirit of Christ or not.

I do commit to telling you that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are God. And I don't care who you are. I am responding to your speech.

I enjoy these protracted exchanges with you sectarian types; you simply cannot bring yourself to admit in writing what it is you believe.

Oh really ?? I cannot bring myself to confess the Father - Son - Holy Spirit as my God huh? Just cannot bring myself to say that anyone who denies the Father - Son - Holy Spirit is God as revealed in the Bible, could use some correction ?

What is it that you say I cannot bring myself to say ?

Are you saying a person should have no restraint and say anything ?
Well, Yes, I do not bring myself to say anything at all.
I will bring myself to say you are wrong concerning your critical attitude about teaching that in Scripture the One God is Father - Son - Holy Spirit.

This entire thread proves that I can bring myself to say that.
And I'll say it again. God is Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

I did not start this thread to list those who are not Christians from those who are.
I started this thread to talk about the truth of the Triune God. See if you can grasp that.
The talk of those who deny this, that I will deal with. That is all I have obligated myself to deal with.

Originally posted by sonship

You have responded , but not answered the question. It's a yes or no answer: it either precludes me or it doesn't.

Do you want me to say that I know that you are not a regenerated Christian because you argue with me about the Trinity ? I don't know that and try as you'd like I do not commit to informing you if you have the Spirit of Chri ...[text shortened]... of those who deny this, that I will deal with. That is all I have obligated myself to deal with.

Stop ranting and just answer my simple question which I've asked you at least 8 times now:

Does outright rejection of your version of the trinity doctrine, preclude that person from being filled with the spirit of Christ and therefore (according to your definition of it..), from salvation?

Yes or no? Why is it so difficult...

Originally posted by sonship

You have responded , but not answered the question. It's a yes or no answer: it either precludes me or it doesn't.

Do you want me to say that I know that you are not a regenerated Christian because you argue with me about the Trinity ? I don't know that and try as you'd like I do not commit to informing you if you have the Spirit of Chri ...[text shortened]... of those who deny this, that I will deal with. That is all I have obligated myself to deal with.

Interesting that for Christians you know nothing of, you have no problem repeatedly saying that once a confession of faith is done with the mouth, that Christian is saved and cannot lose his eternal life. However for Dive you seem to be making an exception .. 😀 Nice going.