I think people get so caught up on the "Trinity" there is not a magic formula that says YOU MUST believe in the Trinity or else ......but God is the corrector of error is He not ? People would kill others just because they do not believe in the "Trinity" or Vise Versa .......Jesus said Follow me ..... He did not say Believe in the "Trinity" and then follow me ...... If God is alive and the Spirit illumines His words and our minds then He can correct us in all things
Manny
The bible does not use the word Trinity anywhere .....I see a triune nature in the bible that God has seemed to reveal about Himself ...... others do not see this the same I can understand that ......Our little finite minds trying to comprehend the very nature of God really ? Words will never do justice to the nature of God ever ever .....
Manny
Originally posted by menace71I didnt know whether you wanted me specifically to reply.
I'm sorry I was not addressing you directly or necessarily.......but just stating what Colossians 1-15-20 reads ......of course though it's a forum and I expect that someone would answer
PS: how have you been there divegeester ?
I've been staying away from the forums for the most part
Manny
Thanks for asking, I'm ok.
Always lots going on in life as we all have.
sonship to divegeester: I am agnostic as to your innermost spiritual condition before God.Are you agnostic as to the innermost spiritual conditions before God of all posters here or only those you have ideological differences with?
FMF: Do you think people here should be agnostic as to your innermost spiritual condition before God too?
Originally posted by sonship
If they have to, sure. Why not ?
You want to think I do not know God at all personally ? Go ahead. You have that right.
I won't sue.
Originally posted by menace71The trinity at best is a man-made explanation of the godhead, nothing more.
The bible does not use the word Trinity anywhere .....I see a triune nature in the bible that God has seemed to reveal about Himself ...... others do not see this the same I can understand that ......Our little finite minds trying to comprehend the very nature of God really ? Words will never do justice to the nature of God ever ever .....
Manny
Therefore it cannot be "truth" in the same way that "hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one" is truth.
Therefore I stick to what is actually written.
I'm not interested in the slightest in how many forms God takes to get the message across or the job done - the entity that we as Christians understand as God, is ONE entity and the name he has given us by which we recognise him as saviour is Jesus/Yeshua.
Originally posted by sonshipAs you well know, because I have made it clear to you many times, I have no reason whatsoever to think you "know" God, personally, or indeed on any level. You believe in a God figure. And you think things about this figure. You also think things about yourself (and thinking these things forms the vast bulk of your religion). And you think things about other people.
You want to think I do not know God at all personally ? Go ahead. You have that right.
For me, when you say something like 'I know God personally', it translates as 'I am really very sincere and certain about the claims I make'. I am not so much exercising a 'right' by saying this, as giving you an honest answer to your question.
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Originally posted by divegeester
The trinity at best is a man-made explanation of the godhead, nothing more.
If all explanations are man-made at best then why isn't your explanation, man-made at best too ? Your explanation is seen above in the quoted box right about what you are now reading.
Therefore it cannot be "truth" in the same way that "hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one" is truth.
The same Bible of truth also says the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:20) . There must be some reason why you think the passage of Deut. 6:4-8 in the Old Testament somehow makes Matthew 28:20 of less importance.
And I pointed before that the Hebrew word there translated as 'one" is also used in saying that Adam and his wife were to become "one flesh". And it is also used to describe the components of the tabernacle to be one.
Sh'ma in the Shema prayer means listen and hear and do. Are you saying the new covenant believer should not also listen and hear do the baptizing of the people of the nations into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ?
You insist that we should "listen" to Deut. 6:4-9. But the Christian should also listen to Matthew 28:20.
Therefore I stick to what is actually written.
Very good. Now Romans 8:8-11 is also written.
The One marvelous Person indwelling the Christians is described by a few interchangeable titles -
"The Spirit of God, The Spirit of Christ, Christ, The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead"
That's written too. So suppose the brothers of yesteryear have to defend that One God is the Spirit of Christ and Christ and the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead, and in order to help defend the faith from attacks arrive at a useful expression - "Trinity" ?
This does not make the truth wrong that the One indwelling God living in the believers has these interchangeable titles. The revelation is not "man-made" because the word "trinity" is not in the New Testament.
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I'm not interested in the slightest in how many forms God takes to get the message across or the job done - the entity that we as Christians understand as God, is ONE entity and the name he has given us by which we recognise him as saviour is Jesus.
The "job" however is for God to dispense Himself into man. And for that divine operation we see the Father as the source, the Son as the course and the Holy Spirit as the final reaching of God into the inside of man.
Do you think the "job" is merely that we objectively recognize God "out there" ? Moslems recognize Allah in a objective way alone.
Orthodox Jews recognize Yahweh as an objective one God there.
Some Christians may also take God as only objectively up there whether in trinitarian terms of unitarian terms.
Romans 8:8-1 and indeed too much of Romans from 5:10 on speaks of God as life to the believers inwardly - and indwelling One. And this indwelling One is the Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ = Christ = the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.
Right away you can see something mysterious here in a wonderful way. Christ is also called the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead.
Did you ever wonder how the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead could also be Christ ? These things are written also.
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Originally posted by FMFI have a sense about different posters. My sense is not infallible.
Are you agnostic as to the innermost spiritual conditions before God of all posters here or only those you have ideological differences with?
Pursuing a discussion of "How wrong can I be and still be a Christian?" is not a profitable subject for me.
Likewise pursuing "How much can I talk differently from you, sonship, and stil be a Christian?" is not a profitable preoccupation.
And whether you doubting my experience of Jesus is your "right" or not or your "honest" comment or not that's Forum your prerogative to state.
And if you have many ways of saying "The more you explain the less I believe what you talk about" that's OK too. Your "Right," "privileged," "honest assessment" .. whatever.
Originally posted by KellyJayIs there an expression in the Bible about -
You giving me your list of what should happen when, does not prove that your list of what
you think should happen when is correct.
I want scripture to prove you point, how can one do the works of God without God?
How can someone who does not know Jesus love Him?
You seem to think we paid for our salvation, it wasn't us it was Jesus, after that we
retur ...[text shortened]... stop lying!
I call your desire to earn your way into God's kingdom by your own efforts wicked.
'earning your way into Gods kingdom by ones own efforts'?
You seem to use that a lot and I cannot seem to find it.
For sure Jesus never said it and neither did the Apostles. So for you to harp on something that does not exist is really very stupid of you.
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Sonship says: The same Bible of truth also says the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:20) . There must be some reason why you think the passage of Deut. 6:4-8 in the Old Testament somehow makes Matthew 28:20 of less importance.
I have to interject here because many here do not realize that many scholars believe that Mathew 28:19 was an early addition to the text.
There is evidence that early Greek texts read "baptize in My name".
This rendering of in the name of the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit is not used anywhere else, which makes the text suspect.
There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38-39
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
NKJV
Every single record in the New Testament show that people were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
It is strange that Jesus would command his Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit just before he ascended, and yet about a month later, on the Day of Pentecost, they completely ignored what he said and baptized “in the name of Jesus Christ.”
For more detail and notes you can see here....
http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Matthew/chapter28/19
BTW, I am not endorsing either side, just giving information and readers can come to their own conclusions.
Originally posted by Rajk999There is a scripture that says it isn't by works we are saved, but by grace. That same
Is there an expression in the Bible about -
'earning your way into Gods kingdom by ones own efforts'?
You seem to use that a lot and I cannot seem to find it.
For sure Jesus never said it and neither did the Apostles. So for you to harp on something that does not exist is really very stupid of you.
verse goes on to say we will do good works, so you just have it backwards.
Ephesians 2:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.