02 Aug 16
Originally posted by KellyJayI dont know where you got this:
If you are going to quote Jesus, I suggest you actually quote Jesus in context and not just
tell me what you THINK. No one is denying we must keep the Lords commands, what I
am denying is that through good works we are worthy of God's grace.
How can anyone love Jesus if they do not believe in Him?
You really have the timing of all of your "Then" sta ...[text shortened]... ot speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
How can anyone love Jesus if they do not believe in Him?
I never said that and neither did Jesus.
You seem to think that Jesus commanded people to love him.
If so the please quote me where Jesus did that.
Again you have it back to front.
First, you follow the commandments of Christ.
Second Jesus loves the follower/disciple
Next, God loves the follower
Finally Jesus manifest himself to that follower.
Thats the order in the Bible.
Your church doctrine has it back to front. I suggest you run as far and a fast away from that church as you can.
He that hath my commandments,
and keepeth them,
he it is that loveth me:
and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father,
and I will love him,
and will manifest myself to him. (John 14:21 KJV)
Keeping the commandments comes first and it is proof of your love for Christ
02 Aug 16
Originally posted by Rajk999This is why you should actually use Jesus' words when you are claiming you are quoting
I dont know where you got this:
How can anyone love Jesus if they do not believe in Him?
I never said that and neither did Jesus.
You seem to think that Jesus commanded people to love him.
If so the please quote me where Jesus did that.
Again you have it back to front.
First, you follow the commandments of Christ.
Second Jesus loves the ...[text shortened]... n 14:21 KJV)[/i]
Keeping the commandments comes first and it is proof of your love for Christ
Him. This is where I got this, from you.
"Instead Jesus says:
IF YOU KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS "
You put this out there!
"Then you love Jesus and Then Jesus will abide with you "
First you follow the commandments, show me where that is first! It is without a doubt
part of the process, but Jesus doesn't love us because we obey, He came to us while
we were yet sinners! You want me to think Jesus doesn't love sinners?
Lay out the order from the Bible do not just give me a list of your own making!
I suggest you turn away from your wickedness in thinking you can earn God's favor by
the 'good works' you do and ask instead for God's grace through Christ and get right with
God so you can do the works of God.
02 Aug 16
Originally posted by KellyJayIf someone says IF you pay for your groceries, THEN you will be able to take it home. It is obvious that payment for groceries must come first and then taking it home comes after.
This is why you should actually use Jesus' words when you are claiming you are quoting
Him. This is where I got this, from you.
"Instead Jesus says:
IF YOU KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS "
You put this out there!
"Then you love Jesus and Then Jesus will abide with you "
First you follow the commandments, show me where that is first! It is without a ...[text shortened]... k instead for God's grace through Christ and get right with
God so you can do the works of God.
Following the commandments of Jesus IS NECESSARY BEFORE ANY OF THESE THINGS HAPPEN.
IF YOU KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS
- Then you get eternal life
- Then you are His disciple
- Then you will never see death
- Then you love Jesus and Then Jesus will abide with you
- Then the Comforter comes to you
- Then the Holy Sprit Gifts will be dispensed to you
- Then you abide in His love
- Then you are his friend
I note with a smile on my face that you have reached the point where you fulfill Bible prophecy by calling my desire to follow the commandments of Jesus, 'wickedness'. Most interesting 😀
03 Aug 16
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999You giving me your list of what should happen when, does not prove that your list of what
If someone says IF you pay for your groceries, THEN you will be able to take it home. It is obvious that payment for groceries must come first and then taking it home comes after.
Following the commandments of Jesus IS NECESSARY BEFORE ANY OF THESE THINGS HAPPEN.
IF YOU KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS
- Then you get eternal life
- Then you are His disciple
...[text shortened]... hecy by calling my desire to follow the commandments of Jesus, 'wickedness'. Most interesting 😀
you think should happen when is correct.
I want scripture to prove you point, how can one do the works of God without God?
How can someone who does not know Jesus love Him?
You seem to think we paid for our salvation, it wasn't us it was Jesus, after that we
return to our proper status with Him being our Lord where we do obey Him.
I don't call your desire to follow Christ wickedness stop lying!
I call your desire to earn your way into God's kingdom by your own efforts wicked.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
03 Aug 16
4 edits
Originally posted by divegeesterYou want me to say that I know that you are not a Christian.
Stop ranting and just answer my simple question which I've asked you at least 8 times now:
Does outright rejection of your version of the trinity doctrine, preclude that person from being filled with the spirit of Christ and therefore (according to your definition of it..), from salvation?
Yes or no? Why is it so difficult...
I don't know that.
I won't send anyone to you to learn about the Triune God whether you are saved or not.
I am agnostic as to your innermost spiritual condition before God. You want a Yes or a No from me but you are not going to get one. And you can re-ask until you're blue in the face.
I don't think the Apostle John insisted that the heretics that said Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh were saved or not. He did insist that they were wrong.
What's a matter ? You want to be WRONG and NOT a CHRISTIAN ? You cannot just be WRONG ?
There were some people in the church in Corinth who were teaching that the resurrection of all the believers had taken place already. I don't see Paul saying for certain that they were not saved. He did say that they were wrong.
Seems you want to force Christians to say "If you're wrong then you're not my brother in Jesus Christ." But I don't know that. And you cannot force me to say I know that. One thing I do know. You're wrong about the Trinity. That I'll inform you of and anyone else.
If you change and admit that the Father is God and and while the Son is God and and while the Holy Spirit is God, guess what ? Then I'll say "He's right. And whether he's my brother in Christ or not, he's right about the teaching of the Trinity."
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
03 Aug 16
2 edits
Originally posted by FMFIf they have to, sure. Why not ?
Do you think people here should be agnostic as to your innermost spiritual condition before God too?
You want to think I do not know God at all personally ? Go ahead. You have that right.
I won't sue.
03 Aug 16
Originally posted by sonshipIf my question creates such turmoil in you, why don't you just answer:
You want me to say that I know that you are not a Christian.
I don't know that.
I won't send anyone to you to learn about the Triune God whether you are saved or not.
I am agnostic as to your innermost spiritual condition before God. You want a Yes or a No from me but you are not going to get one. And you can re-ask until you're blue in the face.
...[text shortened]... whether he's my brother in Christ or not, he's right about the teaching of the Trinity."
"no, of course not, rejecting the doctrine of the trinity would not preclude anyone from being filled with the spirit and therefore from salvation" ?
What I find interesting in these situations is the reluctance of the respondent to commit, to be unequivocal and forthright in the consequences. The JWs are like this with membership; refusing to categorically confirm wether or not membership of their church is a prerequisite to eternal life - we all know it is, but admitting it is a bit awkward for them as they are adopting a sectarian position which effects eternal salvation but is based on a temporal condition I.e. Membership.
It's the same with you and this trinity thing; you simply cannot bring yourself to admit that you believe rejecting it precludes someone from salvation - if you didn't believe that, you would just say so. The reason I chase you and the JWs down over issues like this is because when one gets to this point where salvation become co-dependent with anything else other than solely faith in the atoning work of Christ, there is always error driving that belief.
03 Aug 16
Colossians 1: 15-20
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
What do we make of these verses concerning the son ?
Manny
03 Aug 16
Originally posted by menace71That Jesus is Jehovah incarnate and in his physical body was the FULLNESS of the spiritual godhead.
Colossians 1: 15-20
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold tog ...[text shortened]... his blood, shed on the cross.
What do we make of these verses concerning the son ?
Manny
Furthermore that the whole of creation occurred through this ONE entity (before the physical body was born).
This ONE entity (whether in bodily form or not), is supreme and has reconciled creation to himself, by himself and with no help from anyone else.
03 Aug 16
V16 all things were created by the son ? that's what it reads ..... and He's the image of the invisible God ( whether you believe in the Trinity or not ) the attributes attributed to the son are prerogatives and actions of God Himself .....Genesis God created yet we see these same attributes being assigned to the son
Manny
03 Aug 16
Originally posted by menace71Are you addressing me?
V16 all things were created by the son ? that's what it reads ..... and He's the image of the invisible God ( whether you believe in the Trinity or not ) the attributes attributed to the son are prerogatives and actions of God Himself .....Genesis God created yet we see these same attributes being assigned to the son
Manny
03 Aug 16
Honestly though I don't think God is going to hold a quiz and ask do you believe in the Trinity ? I think a relationship with God and loving God and yes even obeying what He said is more important than having something theologically correct ..... we can see an example of this in the book of acts where a man was a devout believer in God and God honored this but still sent Apostles to correct Him later
Manny
03 Aug 16
Originally posted by menace71Are you addressing me?
Honestly though I don't think God is going to hold a quiz and ask do you believe in the Trinity ? I think a relationship with God and loving God and yes even obeying what He said is more important than having something theologically correct ..... we can see an example of this in the book of acts where a man was a devout believer in God and God honored this but still sent Apostles to correct Him later
Manny
03 Aug 16
Originally posted by divegeesterI'm sorry I was not addressing you directly or necessarily.......but just stating what Colossians 1-15-20 reads ......of course though it's a forum and I expect that someone would answer
Are you addressing me?
PS: how have you been there divegeester ?
I've been staying away from the forums for the most part
Manny