What!? Not Talk About the Trinity ?

Originally posted by divegeester

The trinity is a man-made explaination.

"Man-made" explanations cannot convey truth ?

So you regard the 39 books of the New Testament canon of authoritative and inspired books to also be a "man-made" explanation and therefore necessarily invalid ?

Originally posted by sonship

The trinity is a man-made explaination.

"Man-made" explanations cannot convey truth ?

So you regard the 39 books of the New Testament canon of authoritative and inspired books to also be a "man-made" explanation and therefore necessarily invalid ?

Of course not. But the "trinity" is not in any of them, not even once. Because it's a man-made addition.

What is in them, many many times, is the truth:

"Hear oh Israel (that includes you by the way), the Lord your God is ONE."

Originally posted by divegeester
Personally I just think this is you intellectualising away your need to avoid being challenged about your strange beliefs.

Oh, I seem to be able to handle challenge OK.
Thanks for your concern anyway.

Originally posted by divegeester

Of course not. But the "trinity" is not in any of them, not even once. Because it's a man-made addition.

What is in them, many many times, is the truth:

So though there is no explicit Scripture telling us how many books God said comprise the New Testament you feel confident that the Holy Spirit could lead His people into the truth.

Good. I agree. And I recognize that the same could be true in coining of the word "Trinity." In the defense of the Person of Christ brothers of old coined the term "Trinity." I think it is entirely possible that the Holy Spirit led Christians to coin a useful word.

It seems rather arbitrary that you feel authorized the pronounce that that word is invalid and "man-made". As far as I can see your only criteria is that you just don't like it.

Originally posted by sonship
So though there is no explicit Scripture telling us how many books God said comprise the New Testament you feel confident that the Holy Spirit could lead His people into the truth.

Do you really think that counting the number of books in the New Testament - and saying what that number is - is analogous to projecting something like the notion of the Trinity onto the text?

Originally posted by checkbaiter

I have to interject here because many here do not realize that many scholars believe that Mathew 28:19 was an early addition to the text.
There is evidence that early Greek texts read "baptize in My name".
This rendering of in the name of the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit is not used anywhere else, which makes the text suspect.

Oh, come now. This sounds like a conspiracy theory.

There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38-39

So you have two lines of defense:

1.) It probably was not written in the original New Testament (Matt.28:20) - "into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

2.) The baptisms in Acts have to serve as the only models for baptizing.

Have you explored the minor differences between all the baptisms in Acts with one another ?

"Upon the name" - "in the name" - I recall there are some slight variations.

It seems the Holy Spirit eludes total systematization here.

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Thankyou. i do love this verse. But I don't see how it makes any campaign against - Father - Son - Holy Spirit as God or as the Name into which men are immersed second class or wrong.

Every single record in the New Testament show that people were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
It is strange that Jesus would command his Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit just before he ascended, and yet about a month later, on the Day of Pentecost, they completely ignored what he said and baptized “in the name of Jesus Christ.”

I don't think it reveals anything strange. I think it may expose that some people are experts at missing the point.

One thing i will say. No "Church" should be founded upon a method of baptism.

Somewhere I seemed to recall you saying to the effect - "sonship, finally you agree."
That seemed curious to me since my ideas about this haven't changed in many years.

But if you want to draw up some kind of comparison between then and now, please do it. I've written years ago that baptisms in ANY of the several things taught about baptism is valid when done in faith.

"We baptize you into the death of Christ" That would be valid according to Romans.

Or "We baptize you into the One Spirit" would be as valid as any baptism recorded in the book of Acts, I would say.

Or " We hereby baptize you into the Body of Christ " would be just as valid according to the New Testaement.

And yes also "We baptize you into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." no problem.

Or "We hereby baptize you into Jesus Christ!" This is splendid too and scriptural.

Or "Into one body and into one Spirit we hereby baptize you. Amen!". That would be absolutely marvelous, and biblical.

I wrote this years ago.

Or "We baptize you into the Triune God!". This is quite good too. I really don't think God will sue. I think He'd be quite happy and the angels would rejoice.

Originally posted by sonship

Of course not. But the "trinity" is not in any of them, not even once. Because it's a man-made addition.

What is in them, many many times, is the truth:

So though there is no explicit Scripture telling us how many books God said comprise the New Testament you feel confident that the Holy Spirit could lead His people into the truth ...[text shortened]... invalid and "man-made". As far as I can see your only criteria is that you just don't like it.

The trinity is a doctrine not just a "word", the number of books is just a number; conflating the two and claiming they are of equal weighting is just silly and actually a little dishonest.

Furthermore you believe that rejection of this man-made doctrine precludes someone being filled with the spirit and therefore (according to your definition), from salvation. (Feel free to unequivocally deny that you believe this).

I am "authorised" because it is true. The trinity doctrine is made-up error. The truth that is written in scripture is that God is ONE. Never, nowhere, not once is it written that God is three nor is the made-up word "trinity" anywhere in the Bible.

Originally posted by FMF
Do you really think that counting the number of books in the New Testament - and saying what that number is - is analogous to projecting something like the notion of the Trinity onto the text?

Ha! exactly what I thought.

Quite astonishing.

Originally posted by sonship
It seems rather arbitrary that you feel authorized the pronounce that that word is invalid and "man-made". As far as I can see your only criteria is that you just don't like it.

Well, hang on. Isn't it rather arbitrary that you feel able to simply ignore other criteria he clearly has such as (1) it's not in the bible and (2) you are unable to show that it is, and then you declare - also in a rather arbitrary way - that his "only criteria" is something you cast in a vaguely belittling way: i.e. "you just don't like it"?

Originally posted by KellyJay
You are works driven I get that, but as has been pointing out to you by me and several
others it isn't works that saves us. Works are the by product of our salvation that God
has for us to do.

For you to continue to make the claim I'm saying that it is foolishness to follow Jesus'
commandments only makes you out to be a liar. Once I can see it being a ...[text shortened]... f
yourself to think your views are as good as Jesus and scripture even when they do not
agree.

You can others can point out as much as you like, but I go with the Bible which says:

1. Grace has saved all of mankind, Jews, Gentiles, Atheists .. everybody from Adam to the end of the era of man.
2. Not all of mankind will get into the Kingdom of God, so obviously Grace is no guarantee of eternal life [so keep on boasting of your grace]
3. Even those who profess to know Jesus and are called saints or Christians who have the Spirit of God/Christ, can fall away and end up in destruction.

Those three points are very clearly stated and explained in the Bible... how you miss it I cannot understand.

Even your pet passage which you quote about grace speaks of good works, but you ignore it:

Ephesians 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Christians must do these good works is what the passage says, if you read further down or end up in destruction. I pointed out to you that the good works which God has prepared is exactly the same as the commandments of His Son Jesus Christ. Therefore Christians who do not follow the good works God has prepared, which is the commandments of Christ will not get eternal life.

Jesus said the same thing as did all the Apostles. Grace or the Spirit of God/Christ does not get anyone into the Kingdom of God.

Jesus will welcome those who do good works into his Kingdom as he clearly and repeatedly said.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You can others can point out as much as you like, but I go with the Bible which says:

1. Grace has saved all of mankind, Jews, Gentiles, Atheists .. everybody from Adam to the end of the era of man.
2. Not all of mankind will get into the Kingdom of God, so obviously Grace is no guarantee of eternal life [so keep on boasting of your grace]
3. Even t ...[text shortened]...
Jesus will welcome those who do good works into his Kingdom as he clearly and repeatedly said.

If you went to what the Bible says we would not be debating this.
You take a couple of verses and without looking how it all fits together to make broad untrue
statements. When people point out to your inconsistences you get very unloving. You
would have everyone believe it is only good works God wants, not our faith in Christ.

Ephesians 2: 8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This verse makes it clear that not everyone will be saved except through faith which is
a gift of God, and the good works follow.

So what happens to those that do not believe? You make the claims everyone who does
good works will be saved according to how you read scripture. Again not denying we will
be doing good works! There is a difference between those that believe and those that do
not which you ignore.

John 3: 16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Those that do not believe are condemned already! They live in a condemned state, why?
Because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

When Jesus was here as one of us He told of the Holy Spirit, John tells us that we all have
that have the right to become the children of God. This was done only for those that did
receive Him and believed on his name. As I pointed out earlier those that do not believe
stand condemned already.

John 1: 12-13 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

NO WHERE HAVE I SAID we should/can disobey God and be saved, I've been telling you
that my salvation is in Jesus Christ, not how good I am or how hard I work. You reject a
relationship with Christ to establish your own righteousness. You have a nasty habit of
accusing people here of promoting a life style of sin, because they disagree with your
justification before God by our own efforts in doing good works. We have the right to
become children of God through Jesus Christ, we also have the right not be which by the
way is the default position of all mankind when they do not believe, they stand
condemned already.

Originally posted by KellyJay
If you went to what the Bible says we would not be debating this.
You take a couple of verses and without looking how it all fits together to make broad untrue
statements. When people point out to your inconsistences you get very unloving. You
would have everyone believe it is only good works God wants, not our faith in Christ.

Ephesians 2: 8-10
For ...[text shortened]... is the default position of all mankind when they do not believe, they stand
condemned already.

I stopped reading at "..you get very unloving .. ". Im not interested in discussing doctrine with someone who is searching for love in the internet. So long.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I stopped reading at "..you get very unloving .. ". Im not interested in discussing doctrine with someone who is searching for love in the internet. So long.

Please, you have been very hateful in how you abuse people here.
Even in your warped version of understanding scripture you have to acknowledge you
have done that. Not just me but to several people!

One of the things I think you are missing in this discussion is that being saved is not a
static state to be won and that is it. We are to turn our lives over to God and walk out the
life He has for us. This does not mean we will then get to sin and not worry about God,
it means that the new life found in Christ Jesus sets us free to be the people we were
meant to be, not living as we once did.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Please, you have been very hateful in how you abuse people here.
Even in your warped version of understanding scripture you have to acknowledge you
have done that. Not just me but to several people!

One of the things I think you are missing in this discussion is that being saved is not a
static state to be won and that is it. We are to turn our lives ...[text shortened]... d in Christ Jesus sets us free to be the people we were
meant to be, not living as we once did.

I think your problem is that you know that there is some truth to what Im saying and it conflicts with your church doctrine. Anyway Im not interested .. move along pal.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I think your problem is that you know that there is some truth to what Im saying and it conflicts with your church doctrine. Anyway Im not interested .. move along pal.

I do know there is some truth in what you are saying!
For crying out load Rajk999 I've told you that time and time again, but you are missing the
point over and over! You will never be good enough on your own by doing works to please
God! There are not enough good works to do!