@pb1022 saidThe question is, How does one get eternal life in the Kingdom of God?
We’re talking about salvation, right?
The Gospel of Christ, preached by all the Disciples and Apostles say that even though you are
saved by grace, through faith,
justified by the blood of Christ
born again
given Gods Spirit, the Holy Spirit
seen the salvations of God
baptised into Christ
in the book of life
redeemed
bought with a price
... regardless of what or who you are ...
you still have to live righteously and do good works ie keep the commandments, otherwise you are damned
@pb1022 saidOf course you can argue about anything. It is up to the writer of the bible to say what they meant and Paul defined his expression carefully so you are wrong.
And I’d argue it’s immature Christians who don’t understand Grace and are wrapped up in the “Do good, get good, do bad, get bad” mentality of this world.
The important thing is to believe in Christ and not just use that expression lightly.
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30 Nov 21
@rajk999 saidNo one’s using that expression lightly. I’m certainly not.
Of course you can argue about anything. It is up to the writer of the bible to say what they meant and Paul defined his expression carefully so you are wrong.
The important thing is to believe in Christ and not just use that expression lightly.
But if your position is that one must keep all of the commandments without fail after accepting and believing in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection to be saved, then this verse from the Apostle John doesn’t make much sense:
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
(1 John 1:9)
Neither does chapter 7 in Romans where the Apostle Paul talks about his struggle to not sin and to do what’s right.
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”
(Romans 7:18-25)
@pb1022 saidWhatever, regardless of who you are, God is no respecter of persons. Profess faith, being saved by Grace, being justified, under the Law, not under the Law, freed from sin,... blah blah blah ... whatever you are, you still have to keep the commandments, otherwise there is no inheritance in the Kingdom of God.
No one’s using that expression lightly. I’m certainly not.
But if your position is that one must keep all of the commandments without fail after accepting and believing in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection to be saved, then this verse from the Apostle John doesn’t make much sense:
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse ...[text shortened]... with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”
(Romans 7:18-25)
If you lips cannot say it, then your heart does not believe it and your doctrine is not of Christ
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@rajk999 saidWhen you say one has to “keep the commandments” to enter the Kingdom of God, to what degree are you talking about?
Whatever, regardless of who you are, God is no respecter of persons. Profess faith, being saved by Grace, being justified, under the Law, not under the Law, freed from sin,... blah blah blah ... whatever you are, you still have to keep the commandments, otherwise there is no inheritance in the Kingdom of God.
If you lips cannot say it, then your heart does not believe it and your doctrine is not of Christ
Perfectly? One has to keep all the commandments all the time? Jews in the Old Covenant couldn’t do that. That’s why God in the Old Testament instituted a sacrificial system to atone for sins.
If you’re *not* talking about keeping all the commandments perfectly, then to what degree are you talking about?
I still think your biggest stumbling block is in thinking Christians who know they are saved by Grace through faith kick back and do nothing for the rest of their lives but live it up and party, and that’s not at all the case.
When Christians realize the value of what Jesus Christ did for them (or even get a glimpse of it,) they want to serve God out of love and gratitude.
I said before that good works/trying one’s best to keep the commandments are evidence of salvation and not a requirement for it. If someone claims to be saved but is living a life of sin, then it’s obvious to me, they aren’t saved. But sanctification is not immediate the way salvation is. God’s indwelt Holy Spirit changes one’s heart, which then leads to a change in their behavior.
@pb1022 saidYou keep asking that and it is really a stupid question. Christ said keep the commandments and he will judge. All the Apostles said the same thing. Nobody spoke of any degree.
When you say one has to “keep the commandments” to enter the Kingdom of God, to what degree are you talking about?
Perfectly? One has to keep all the commandments all the time? Jews in the Old Covenant couldn’t do that. That’s why God in the Old Testament instituted a sacrificial system to atone for sins.
If you’re *not* talking about keeping all the commandments perfect ...[text shortened]... n is. God’s indwelt Holy Spirit changes one’s heart, which then leads to a change in their behavior.
Your line of questioning sounds a lot like the unorofitable servant with one talent who did nothing.
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@rajk999 said<<You keep asking that and it is really a stupid question. Christ said keep the commandments and he will judge.>>
You keep asking that and it is really a stupid question. Christ said keep the commandments and he will judge. All the Apostles said the same thing. Nobody spoke of any degree.
Your line of questioning sounds a lot like the unorofitable servant with one talent who did nothing.
Can you cite where He said that? Not trying to be argumentative; I’m sincerely interested.
And you know nothing of what I’ve done in regard to good works and keeping the commandments. You seem very judgmental and condemning. Was Jesus like that? The only people He was like that with were the Pharisees, who were obsessed with Law keeping and who didn’t care about compassion and mercy.
30 Nov 21
@pb1022 saidWhat are you asking. Do you need proof that Jesus said to keep the commandments? Or that he is the judge? Or both? Both in the same sentence? Is that it?
<<You keep asking that and it is really a stupid question. Christ said keep the commandments and he will judge.>>
Can you cite where He said that? Not trying to be argumentative; I’m sincerely interested.
And you know nothing of what I’ve done in regard to good works and keeping the commandments. You seem very judgmental and condemning. Was Jesus like that? The only peop ...[text shortened]... re the Pharisees, who were obsessed with Law keeping and who didn’t care about compassion and mercy.
I dont know anything about your works and I dont care about that. You are the one questioning the relevance of doing works and asking what % of the commandments should be kept and other stupid questions. Had you cared about compassion and mercy the question of what % of the commandments need to be kept would not even entire your mind.
Yes Jesus was judgmental and condemning to all people who seem to think they are more saved, more righteous and already have eternal life while others are going the burn in hell for eternity. You want some names of these people ?
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01 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidI’m asking you these questions solely in relation to your claim that keeping the commandments and good works *are required for salvation.*
What are you asking. Do you need proof that Jesus said to keep the commandments? Or that he is the judge? Or both? Both in the same sentence? Is that it?
I dont know anything about your works and I dont care about that. You are the one questioning the relevance of doing works and asking what % of the commandments should be kept and other stupid questions. Had you cared ...[text shortened]... nal life while others are going the burn in hell for eternity. You want some names of these people ?
No one is disputing the value and importance of keeping the commandments, doing good works and living a life that honors and pleases God.
You seem unable to view keeping the commandments and good works apart from salvation. You think - falsely - that if someone doesn’t think keeping the commandments and good works are necessary for salvation, then they don’t care about them.
Is trying to earn your way into Heaven all you care about?
You imagine salvation by Grace through faith Christians are like kids who receive a brand-new bike from their father as a gift and when their father asks them to cut the grass, they say, “No way! I got a brand-new bike. I got what I want. Buzz off!”
You don’t seem to understand the idea of keeping the commandments and doing good works out of love and gratitude rather than out of duty and obligation.
You seem to entirely discount the power of God’s Holy Spirit in indwelling a new believer and changing his heart so he has new desires and new interests and no longer is a slave to sin and sinful habits.
Are you the same person, heart wise, today that you were before you became a Christian? Do you have the same desires, attitudes, interests and habits? Same way of thinking? If you do, and you’ve been a Christian for any significant length of time, then I’d wonder whether you are saved.
I don’t need proof that Jesus said to keep the commandments. I’d like to see where he says those who don’t keep the commandments don’t get eternal life. And I’m not trying to be argumentative. I’m genuinely interested.
@pb1022 saidI said that doing good works and living righteously is required for eternal life in the Kingdom of God. If Matt 25 does not say that then you cannot read.
I’m asking you these questions solely in relation to your claim that keeping the commandments and good works *are required for salvation.*
I notice you keep changing my words. I almost never use the word 'saved or salvation or going to heaven. I use the expression eternal life in the Kingdom of God.
I have repeatedly said that Jesus saved people from their sins by his death and resurrection. So it is only those who keep the commandments will get eternal life.
Or maybe you are one of those Christians who think that Saved = eternal life. They are not the same.
01 Dec 21
@pb1022 saidJesus said if you want eternal life, keep the commandments.
I don’t need proof that Jesus said to keep the commandments. I’d like to see where he says those who don’t keep the commandments don’t get eternal life. And I’m not trying to be argumentative. I’m genuinely interested.
Matt 25 the judgement scenario. I
I think those are pretty clear. Paul said several times to Christian Saints that if they lived unrighteously etc thy will not inherit the Kingdom of God
I cannot believe you asking for such proof.
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@rajk999 saidI assume you’re talking about the Parable of Sheep and Goats?
Jesus said if you want eternal life, keep the commandments.
Matt 25 the judgement scenario. I
I think those are pretty clear. Paul said several times to Christian Saints that if they lived unrighteously etc thy will not inherit the Kingdom of God
I cannot believe you asking for such proof.
If you are, I think you’re unable to come off this mindset that people who are saved (or once they know they’re saved) won’t keep the commandments or do good works. You seem to think people need a perpetual carrot (Heaven) and perpetual stick (hell) as motivation to keep the commandments and do good works.
How many times have people on here written that good works are evidence of salvation? Again, God’s indwelt Holy Spirit in a new believer changes that believer’s heart which results in a change in desires and behavior.
Where in this passage from the Gospel of John does Jesus mention keeping the commandments or good works? He’s talking about sheep - sheep defined as people who know Jesus and are known by Him. It’s a relational thing - not a performance thing.
“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
(John 10:14-16)
Man’s natural inclination is focus on self. These are people without God’s Holy Spirit and these are the goats.
Man’s natural inclination when he has God’s Holy Spirit becomes focus on God and focus on others. These are the sheep.
You don’t seem to understand what God’s Holy Spirit does to a person who accepts and believes in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection.
@pb1022 saidThis sentence made me laugh. You really are not reading what I'm saying at all.
How many times have people on here written that good works are evidence of salvation?
I do not listen to people where the bible is concerned. I only hear Jesus Christ and I'm pretty sure he said no such thing.
So since your post is church doctrine I did not really read it carefully as im sure it is nothing from what Jesus said.
So we understand... finally ... each others POV.. see you in the next topic.
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01 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidCan you and I can agree on this much?
This sentence made me laugh. You really are not reading what I'm saying at all.
I do not listen to people where the bible is concerned. I only hear Jesus Christ and I'm pretty sure he said no such thing.
So since your post is church doctrine I did not really read it carefully as im sure it is nothing from what Jesus said.
So we understand... finally ... each others POV.. see you in the next topic.
1) Belief in Jesus Christ is essential for eternal life (John 3:16, Romans 10:9, John 6:40 et al)
2) Those who believe in Jesus Christ and His Resurrection receive God’s Holy Spirit.
3) God’s Holy Spirit indwelling a believer changes his or her heart so they are become naturally inclined to focus on the needs of others, instead of only on themselves, and do good works.
4) No one is expected (or able) to keep all of the commandments all of the time. Jesus Christ forgives believers of their sins (1 John 1:9 - “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.&rdquo😉
5) Believers in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection increasingly focus less on self and more on others and thereby follow Galatians 6:2 (“Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.&rdquo😉 because of the Holy Spirit changing them from the inside out.
6) If someone accepts and believes in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection at 9 a.m. and gets run over by a bus at 10 a.m., that person is saved. (This is analogous to the thief on the cross.)
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01 Dec 21
@Rajk999
Apologies…
No idea where these emojis came from but not interested in editing the post to remove them.