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01 Dec 21
@Rajk999
BTW, since you appear to be a “red letter Christian,” let me quote these words from Jesus Christ to you:
“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;”
(John 16:7-9)
What does Jesus call sin?
“They believe not on me.”
@pb1022 saidWell we off on a wrong start with #1 - Your quotes deal with a specific teaching to specific people, and you appear to be applying them to the whole of mankind and this is not the right approach. There are people who were born before Jesus [under different rules], and there are many who never heard of Jesus [under different rules], even after he was born. How can they be expected to believe in him? They in those areas, where the Apostles preached, were going to hear about Jesus Christ. So we are sure in that area they heard the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ. Paul in Romans 2 [which I pointed out to you before] dealt with the people who heard no Gospel Message, and under different rules.
Can you and I can agree on this much?
1) Belief in Jesus Christ is essential for eternal life (John 3:16, Romans 10:9, John 6:40 et al)
2) Those who believe in Jesus Christ and His Resurrection receive God’s Holy Spirit.
3) God’s Holy Spirit indwelling a believer changes his or her heart so they are become naturally inclined to focus on the needs of others, instead of ...[text shortened]... s run over by a bus at 10 a.m., that person is saved. (This is analogous to the thief on the cross.)
If you want the truth of what will happen in the end or the end result of all this talk of believing, working, saving, justifying, Grace, Holy Spirit, who has it and who does not etc etc... then look at the end result. What is the final event. Here it is:
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Revelation 22:12-15 KJV)
This is the end result., stated many times and in may ways by almost all writers of the NT and all people from all ages, will be under this one rule
those who keep the commandments get eternal life
those who do not are condemned
@pb1022 saidI consider a red-letter Christian label is a compliment. Thank you. These types of Christians are closer to the truth than all others.
@Rajk999
BTW, since you appear to be a “red letter Christian,” let me quote these words from Jesus Christ to you:
“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, ...[text shortened]... they believe not on me;”
(John 16:7-9)
What does Jesus call sin?
“They believe not on me.”
So the question is
What does Jesus call sin? .. “They believe not on me.”
What Jesus calls believe, is to believe on the things he said, believe and act on the things he said, keep his words, his sayings, his commandments. Believing with the mouth or professing believing without doing is condemned :
... If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. (John 14:23-24 KJV)
@pb1022 saidLet me respond to more of these:
Can you and I can agree on this much?
1) Belief in Jesus Christ is essential for eternal life (John 3:16, Romans 10:9, John 6:40 et al)
2) Those who believe in Jesus Christ and His Resurrection receive God’s Holy Spirit.
3) God’s Holy Spirit indwelling a believer changes his or her heart so they are become naturally inclined to focus on the needs of others, instead of ...[text shortened]... s run over by a bus at 10 a.m., that person is saved. (This is analogous to the thief on the cross.)
Can you and I can agree on this much?
1) Belief in Jesus Christ is essential for eternal life (John 3:16, Romans 10:9, John 6:40 et al)
Dealt with this in an earlier post
2) Those who believe in Jesus Christ and His Resurrection receive God’s Holy Spirit.
Gods Spirit is given to genuine believers. The Devils believe and tremble. The devils believe in God, in Jesus Christ and know of his death and resurrection. Jesus never preached to believe in his resurrection, so it is not part of the Gospel. If Paul said it and you think its critical then by all means carry on. But Jesus on the day of judgment will never say to someone like the Good Samaritan .. get away from me because you did not believe in my resurrection. Thats not going to happen.
3) God’s Holy Spirit indwelling a believer changes his or her heart so they are become naturally inclined to focus on the needs of others, instead of only on themselves, and do good works.
Wrong. This is not in the bible
4) No one is expected (or able) to keep all of the commandments all of the time. Jesus Christ forgives believers of their sins (1 John 1:9 - “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.&rdquo😉
Correct. Nobody is perfect but the sin is not trying like I said similar to the man who got 1 talent and did nothing.
5) Believers in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection increasingly focus less on self and more on others and thereby follow Galatians 6:2 (“Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.&rdquo😉 because of the Holy Spirit changing them from the inside out.
Maybe, and maybe not. This is not in the bible. This is what they are supposed to do. Your statement that they actually do it is false.
6) If someone accepts and believes in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection at 9 a.m. and gets run over by a bus at 10 a.m., that person is saved. (This is analogous to the thief on the cross.)
Yes, but Jesus will judge because he alone knows of the heart and intentions of man
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01 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidThen how do you explain this:
Well we off on a wrong start with #1 - Your quotes deal with a specific teaching to specific people, and you appear to be applying them to the whole of mankind and this is not the right approach. There are people who were born before Jesus [under different rules], and there are many who never heard of Jesus [under different rules], even after he was born. How can they be ...[text shortened]... one rule
those who keep the commandments get eternal life
those who do not are condemned
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
(John 14:6)
Jesus is quite specific here. “No man” imo means “no man.”
I’d be curious what you think about predestination and whether that’s Biblical. Because if it is, people who are destined to be saved will hear about Jesus, one way or another. God could and would ensure that. And with the Internet, I think it’s more easy than ever for someone to hear about Jesus.
But if God wants someone to hear about Jesus and have their eyes, ears, hearts and minds opened to the Gospel and New Covenant, He can make that happen any number of ways.
As far as that passage at the end of your post, right, those are people who did not believe in Jesus Christ and who did not receive God’s Holy Spirit. These are not people who occasionally slipped up - these are people whose sins have defined them because of how often they repeat them or their refusal to repent from them.
Let’s look at an example that was listed.
If someone murders another person at age, say, 16, is that 16-year-old forbidden from entering Heaven no matter what he does the rest of his life? Is his eternal fate sealed at 16? He’s a murderer after all.
What could he do after murdering someone to qualify for Heaven? Wouldn’t it be having that sin forgiven? If so, good works and keeping the commandments don’t forgive sins. They didn’t in the Old Testament and they don’t today. The shedding of blood is what forgives sins. It was the blood of animals in the Old Testament, blood which had to be shed over and over again, and it’s the blood of Jesus in the New Testament and New Covenant.
“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
(Matthew 26:28)
That’s why belief in Jesus Christ is essential. That’s how sins are forgiven.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
(John 3:16)
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
(Romans 10:9)
“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
(John 6:40)
01 Dec 21
@pb1022 saidI like this passage and the whole chapter, but what is very amusing is that many Christians use this very passage John 14:6 to show that a someone has to profess faith in Christ otherwise they are damned, when I cannot see any reference to faith or belief in that passsage. You said Jesus was very specific and he spoke at length in that same chapter about good works and keeping the commandments, but said nothing about professing faith.
Then how do you explain this:
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
(John 14:6)
Jesus is quite specific here. “No man” imo means “no man.”
Read the whole chapter. Thomas and Phillip was asking about how shall they know the WAY.
The WAY IS CHRIST and HIS COMMANDMENTS
Who is it that loves Christ
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.(John 14:21 KJV)
Must have quoted this several times in the last few days.
@pb1022 saidI cannot answer your question spedirically but for sure God is capable of making anyone hear about Jesus if that is the aim.
I’d be curious what you think about predestination and whether that’s Biblical. Because if it is, people who are destined to be saved will hear about Jesus, one way or another. God could and would ensure that. And with the Internet, I think it’s more easy than ever for someone to hear about Jesus.
But if God wants someone to hear about Jesus and have their eyes, ears, hearts and minds opened to the Gospel and New Covenant, He can make that happen any number of ways.
God and Jesus are also capable of giving eternal life to anyone he deems to be worthy. Why is it that many Christians think Jesus is bound by rules laid down by Paul or the church about professing faith? Jesus can pull anyone off the street and say 'hey.. I like your shoes, come into the Kingdom of God'.
The church appears to be making up rules for Jesus to follow about who should be in the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is about righteousness, and all who qualify will enter. ALL, not just Christians.
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01 Dec 21
@rajk999 said<<I consider a red-letter Christian label is a compliment. Thank you. These types of Christians are closer to the truth than all others.>>
I consider a red-letter Christian label is a compliment. Thank you. These types of Christians are closer to the truth than all others.
So the question is
What does Jesus call sin? .. “They believe not on me.”
What Jesus calls believe, is to believe on the things he said, believe and act on the things he said, keep his words, his sayings, his commandments. Belie ...[text shortened]... ngs: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. (John 14:23-24 KJV)[/i]
I embrace the whole Holy Bible because all Scripture is “God breathed.”
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,”
(2 Timothy 3:16 NIV)
<<What Jesus calls believe, is to believe on the things he said, believe and act on the things he said, keep his words, his sayings, his commandments.>>
Do you have a citation for this? You don’t think believing means believing Jesus was who He said He was?
“When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”
(Matthew 16:13-17)
“And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
(John 20:26-29)
<<Believing with the mouth or professing believing without doing is condemned :>>
Sure. Professing belief with the mouth is not the same as believing with the heart.
Romans 10:9 is pretty clear on that.
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
(Romans 10:9)
<< ... If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. (John 14:23-24 KJV)>>
What did Jesus say was the greatest commandment? What did he say was the second greatest?
“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
(Matthew 22:37-40)
And just as no one could keep the Old Testament Law to perfection, no one can keep either of these commandments to perfection. That’s why we need a Saviour.
“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
(Galatians 3:24-26)
01 Dec 21
@pb1022 saidThis forgiveness of sins apply to Christians only?
Let’s look at an example that was listed.
If someone murders another person at age, say, 16, is that 16-year-old forbidden from entering Heaven no matter what he does the rest of his life? Is his eternal fate sealed at 16? He’s a murderer after all.
What could he do after murdering someone to qualify for Heaven? Wouldn’t it be having that sin forgiven? If so, good works ...[text shortened]... elieveth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
(John 6:40)
The death and resurrection of Christ is for Christians only.
Jesus preached in His Gospel Message that people have to believe in his resurrection?
01 Dec 21
@pb1022 saidThen embrace away. I place the teachings of Christ above the rest of the bible. The day you start doing that will be a red-letter day in your journey to the Kingdom of God.
<<I consider a red-letter Christian label is a compliment. Thank you. These types of Christians are closer to the truth than all others.>>
I embrace the whole Holy Bible because all Scripture is “God breathed.”
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,”
The teachings of Jesus Christ is essential for eternal life
The rest of the bible .. useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
You choose your weapon.
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01 Dec 21
@Rajk999
<<The church appears to be making up rules for Jesus to follow about who should be in the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is about righteousness, and all who qualify will enter. ALL, not just Christians.>>
This is absolutely false.
Good people aren’t in Heaven. Forgiven sinners are. None of us qualify for Heaven based on our own. Everyone whose sins have been forgiven and covered by the blood of Jesus qualifies. I’m honestly stunned you don’t believe that.
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
(John 14:6)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
(John 3:16)
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
(Romans 10:9)
“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”
(1 John 2:22-23)
We’ve got Jesus, John and Paul all saying the same thing. How many more citations do you need?
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01 Dec 21
@Rajk999
<<This forgiveness of sins apply to Christians only?>>
That’s right.
<<The death and resurrection of Christ is for Christians only.>>
Not sure what you’re saying here. If someone believes in the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection, that makes them a Christian, no?
01 Dec 21
@pb1022 saidI am honestly stunned that you believe that only Christians are capable of getting forgiveness and that you do not know that Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.
@Rajk999
<<This forgiveness of sins apply to Christians only?>>
That’s right.
<<The death and resurrection of Christ is for Christians only.>>
Not sure what you’re saying here. If someone believes in the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection, that makes them a Christian, no?
Christians do not have a monopoly on Christ, neither on righteousness. Christians do not have a free pass to the Kingdom of God. In the end EVERY MAN WILL BE JUDGED.by the same yardstick, which is WORKS.
Did you forget Paul said that charity / brotherly love is GREATER THAN faith. You have faith, Someone else has charity. Faith is at the bottom of the criteria when the day of judgment arrives.
That someone else is going to be forgiven of his sins and he will enter the Kingdom of God.